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I ran through YPAO measuring and tweaking with manual PEQ again last night. I confirmed that the AVR seems to have offset the master volume by 10db (ie. REW with -10db sweeps and the MV set at -20db still gives me 85db output).

I hope you guys don't mind me adding graphs to this thread but I need pictures.

This is what YPAO "FLAT" does. It isn't flat. YPAO did this on purpose since when I copied "flat" to "manual", there was gain at 8KHz and 16KHz so this was added on purpose. Slight gripe. It's no wonder that some people find the Yamaha sound a little harsh. Of course I didn't look at "natural" but I will later.



Here's what the center+sub ended up as after a little tweaking. This is the curve I like; bass bumped up a bit and a little roll-off for the highs.



Here's the front-left+sub



And front-right+sub



Not too bad. I'm happy.

I couldn't have gotten these with the old A800 that the A2070 replaced. I tried. I can only assume tha tthe addition of Yamaha's RSC helps out (which is one of the big reasons I wanted to upgrade).

The web interface also saved me a ton of time. When I'm tweaking the PEQ it's a process of looking at the REW sweep, make changes, repeat. Each time it *used* to require me to get up and navigate to the PEQ menu with the remote and make changes. Run a new sweep, then grab the remote again. With the web interface, I can stay seated near my laptop and make the changes, then run another sweep. Small thing but it's a huge time saver.

This is also a reminder that you can't really know what your AVR is doing unless you measure it. The tools are cheap and well worth it.
 

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I ran through YPAO measuring and tweaking with manual PEQ again last night. I confirmed that the AVR seems to have offset the master volume by 10db (ie. REW with -10db sweeps and the MV set at -20db still gives me 85db output).

I hope you guys don't mind me adding graphs to this thread but I need pictures.

This is what YPAO "FLAT" does. It isn't flat. YPAO did this on purpose since when I copied "flat" to "manual", there was gain at 8KHz and 16KHz so this was added on purpose. Slight gripe. It's no wonder that some people find the Yamaha sound a little harsh. Of course I didn't look at "natural" but I will later.

Not too bad. I'm happy.

I couldn't have gotten these with the old A800 that the A2070 replaced. I tried. I can only assume tha tthe addition of Yamaha's RSC helps out (which is one of the big reasons I wanted to upgrade).

The web interface also saved me a ton of time. When I'm tweaking the PEQ it's a process of looking at the REW sweep, make changes, repeat. Each time it *used* to require me to get up and navigate to the PEQ menu with the remote and make changes. Run a new sweep, then grab the remote again. With the web interface, I can stay seated near my laptop and make the changes, then run another sweep. Small thing but it's a huge time saver.

This is also a reminder that you can't really know what your AVR is doing unless you measure it. The tools are cheap and well worth it.
What tools do you recommend? I'm just learning about adjusting my A2080 with YPAO, connected 2.1. L/R R3, Rythmik F12SE...

I set the F12SE according to the recommended initial settings when connected to an AVR, LFE input PEQ mode off, etc.

I ran multipoint YPAO 2x. Both times it set my R3's to large, hence sub not used. After some very basic manual tweaking and my ears only, I like the sound best (testing with music after I had listened to the same music tracks in 2.0 channel mode extensively before my sub arrived).

R3's, small. Crossover 80 HZ. However I'd like to try more with small, 60HZ to use everything the R3's have to offer because they sound good and clean low, if that makes sense.

YPAO set to through mode, but bumped up my sub from YPAO intial offset of -2.5 db to .5 db.

The Rythmik very nicely fills in the lower frequencies I was unable to hear before, using Yosi Horikawa's "Bubbles" track.

It should be even better when I improve my room correction and room treatment skills. :)
 

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Hi Matthew, I use REW (free download) and a UMIK microphone ($100). It's kind of the "standard" on avsforum for communicating room or general audio issues. It's easy to use and can help you with putting together room treatments (which is what I originally started using it for).

My left, right, center were also set to large. They are certainly not since their bottom -3db point is 55Hz (HTM-12's from DIYSG). I set them to small and crossover to 90Hz after YPAO was done.

One nice thing is that the subwoofer distance was set right on the money by YPAO to get the timing/phase correct right at the crossover frequency. You can use REW to help set the sub distance (or in this case, verify it) but it's tricky and I'm glad that YPAO got it right. I've got an external amplifier for my subs that has it's own DSP in it which adds delay in the subwoofer signal path so the subwoofer distance that is correct is *not* the same distance you get when measuring with a tape measure.

So I would guess that your Rythmik is properly integrated with your mains by YPAO. I also bumped my sub up a few db after YPAO was finished.

Are your L/R the KEF R3's? Looks like those are good to 38Hz -3db. (Amazing for a small footprint). Those should cover any music unless it's got low-frequency synthesized material in it. (I believe that I read that if you can reproduce down to 40Hz, you've got music covered). For movies you'll want that Rythmik though. You could set up two speaker patterns; one for just 2 channel music listening where your mains are set to large and so no sub, then another pattern with mains set to small and the sub gets used.
 

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This is what YPAO "FLAT" does. It isn't flat. YPAO did this on purpose since when I copied "flat" to "manual", there was gain at 8KHz and 16KHz so this was added on purpose.
The reason for this is because DVD, Blu-Ray and I believe UHD disc are mastered with a cut at the high end for home use. So, Yamaha introduces a boost which off sets the cuts and the end result is a flat response. That's Yamaha's theory and purpose anyway, the end user can decide whether or not it's good, bad or acceptable. The high end cut at mastering use to be called CinemaEQ if I remember correctly.

Also, I noticed that when owners use REW to further calibrate their rooms, they always seem to copy "Flat" to manual and work from there. I would suggest to use "Natural" instead because the high end is not boosted as much by default. I would also suggest that after you take a reading with Natural to go into the option menu and pull down the treble control and take a reading after each adjustment. You will find that you now have a pretty flat response and you did not have to touch any of the individual frequency bands. The treble control works as a taper from approximately 3k to 20k meaning, if you decreased the treble control -3, it would bring down 20k 3db and 3k very little if any at all. I am guessing at the numbers somewhat because I am not in front of any of my various readings.

Using that method along with scenes, you can have different curves for every input which is very useful and a great set of options.
 

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H Stevens, thank you sir! I intended to copy "Natural" over this evening and see what it did and play with it (tweak PEQ) if it started out better than "Flat".

Thank you for the tip on the treble control! I will definitely try that. The less PEQ I need to do, the better.

I did not know that about CinemaEQ on DVD and BR (rolling off the highs). Interesting. Is this a standard practice or does it vary from disc to disc (or studio to studio)?
 

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Hi Matthew, I use REW (free download) and a UMIK microphone ($100). It's kind of the "standard" on avsforum for communicating room or general audio issues. It's easy to use and can help you with putting together room treatments (which is what I originally started using it for).

My left, right, center were also set to large. They are certainly not since their bottom -3db point is 55Hz (HTM-12's from DIYSG). I set them to small and crossover to 90Hz after YPAO was done.

One nice thing is that the subwoofer distance was set right on the money by YPAO to get the timing/phase correct right at the crossover frequency. You can use REW to help set the sub distance (or in this case, verify it) but it's tricky and I'm glad that YPAO got it right. I've got an external amplifier for my subs that has it's own DSP in it which adds delay in the subwoofer signal path so the subwoofer distance that is correct is *not* the same distance you get when measuring with a tape measure.

So I would guess that your Rythmik is properly integrated with your mains by YPAO. I also bumped my sub up a few db after YPAO was finished.

Are your L/R the KEF R3's? Looks like those are good to 38Hz -3db. (Amazing for a small footprint). Those should cover any music unless it's got low-frequency synthesized material in it. (I believe that I read that if you can reproduce down to 40Hz, you've got music covered). For movies you'll want that Rythmik though. You could set up two speaker patterns; one for just 2 channel music listening where your mains are set to large and so no sub, then another pattern with mains set to small and the sub gets used.
Thanks... The distances were accurate when I ran YPAO too. But then I changed Parametric EQ to "through mode" because it sounded way better than "flat" With the PEQ changed to 'through" i'm not sure if there are any YPAO adjustments still being used.

Yes, my fronts are R3's right now running 2.1. The R3's are amazing... So I want them to do as much as they can before the sub takes over where it may be better. I like your idea of setting different patterns. I'll look more into it. I do listen to synthesized/engineered stuff that goes lower than 38HZ. But it also seems like some normal music has been augmented by the sub..
 

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Installed the Firmare update on my 3070. The center channel stops working for some content, primarily SOME commercials. Has anyone else experienced this?
 

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Installed the Firmare update on my 3070. The center channel stops working for some content, primarily SOME commercials. Has anyone else experienced this?
I'm guessing that you're in "Straight" mode, and you're getting occasional ads that aren't in Dolby Digital 5.1, but in 2.0. If the content is going through the AVR, use the INFO or on-screen display to show you what the incoming audio stream is.
 

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This is what YPAO "FLAT" does. It isn't flat. YPAO did this on purpose since when I copied "flat" to "manual", there was gain at 8KHz and 16KHz so this was added on purpose. Slight gripe. It's no wonder that some people find the Yamaha sound a little harsh. Of course I didn't look at "natural" but I will later.
if "flat" and "flat copied to manual" (w/o changing anything) deliver different results there must be some kind of mistake/error!

and as usual: don't judge the correction by looking at the PEQ settings, that is the most common mistake related to YPAO!!!
the room correction is mainly done by the R.S.C. part and you can't see or even edit this.
the PEQ is used for the rough corrections only.
so R.S.C. corrects the room. "flat" and "natural" are using the same R.S.C. correction but natural adds some kind of treble decrease with the PEQ.

This is also a reminder that you can't really know what your AVR is doing unless you measure it. The tools are cheap and well worth it.
that's true!
on the other hand there are still some pitfalls to avoid. Which micro, which calibration, orientation...
 

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But then I changed Parametric EQ to "through mode" because it sounded way better than "flat"
that is strange, obviously you are used to the acoustic errors of your room and any improvement feels to be wrong...

With the PEQ changed to 'through" i'm not sure if there are any YPAO adjustments still being used.
parts are still active: distance, level etc.
but the frequency correction by R.S.C. and PEQ is switched off

So I want them to do as much as they can before the sub takes over where it may be better. I like your idea of setting different patterns. I'll look more into it.
in most rooms the situation is like this:
the front speakers must be placed regarding various rules. Stereo triangle, same distance, optical restraints etc.
usually the compromise for the best stereo reproduction (stage width and depth etc.) is not the position for the best bass reproduction in the room.
the subwoofer can be placed in the room with far less restrictions (depending on how flexible the "optical" part is...) and therefore delivers a better bass even if the front speakers are "theoretical" able to reproduce these frequencies.
in most cases it's wort trying to use higher cross over frequencies.
 

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Mickey "flat" and "natural" are using the same R.S.C. correction but natural adds some kind of treble decrease with the PEQ. [/QUOTE said:
Correction. Flat adds some kind of treble increase.
 

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Correction. Flat adds some kind of treble increase.
I doubt that for the CX-A5100, at least.
I did several "electrical based" measurements, meaning: not with speakers/micro but directly from the pre out into an audio interface, as well as "normal" ones (with calibrated Umik) and all of them indicate a "linear" behavior for "flat" and a treble decrease for "natural".

as I mentioned before, there are several pitfalls, especially with the micro. If you use 90° calibration and direct the mic towards the ceiling you get completely different results than towards the speakers and 0°. Since humans hear somehow forward directed, the reality is somewhere in between.

and again, often the PEQ settings give the wrong impression. If the R.S.C. part is "quite busy" for the treble, it usually decreases the level over the whole correction frequency range (let's call it collateral damage) and the PEQ is used to "correct the correction". But what you see (PEQ only) is the opposite of the combination of R.S.C. and PEQ together!
 

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that is strange, obviously you are used to the acoustic errors of your room and any improvement feels to be wrong...


parts are still active: distance, level etc.
but the frequency correction by R.S.C. and PEQ is switched off


in most rooms the situation is like this:
the front speakers must be placed regarding various rules. Stereo triangle, same distance, optical restraints etc.
usually the compromise for the best stereo reproduction (stage width and depth etc.) is not the position for the best bass reproduction in the room.
the subwoofer can be placed in the room with far less restrictions (depending on how flexible the "optical" part is...) and therefore delivers a better bass even if the front speakers are "theoretical" able to reproduce these frequencies.
in most cases it's wort trying to use higher cross over frequencies.

Thanks for the input. I'm just starting to work with all the adjustments in YPAO. I'll soon be adding a second F12 and will be at 2.2 configuration for a while. I just read up on how best to manage bass with the AVR processor YPAO initial settings, in conjunction with the gain knob on my sub. I'm going to concentrate on getting proficient on bass management and going further into how to properly understand and use YPAO PEQ modes, and why I am perceiving Through correction as better sound, or if i'm simply making mistakes with YPAO.

The difference I perceive when switching between the parametric modes Flat and Through is Flat is thin with less bass, and Through was more full, and more bass. My perception being that with full sound, while still maintaining the instrument/vocal/channel separation clarity I'm really liking with the A2080, is currently more appealing to me.
 

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Flat is not flat no matter how you measure, there is some increase/boost at the high end. Every room is different, I measured a room that had a wrap around sectional sofa unit, carpet floors, draperies hanging to the floor and Flat had a boost, Natural was almost flat. I set up a 50 series in a studio apartment that was a mill renovation in the city that was an echo chamber, with the treble control -6 it wasn't flat. Yamaha has discussed this before as well as other calibrators with experience using YPAO.

There is a cut applied to CD audio as well as video media for home use that Yamaha attempts to account for, that was the reasoning as of several years ago, to my knowledge nothing has changed. I may well be wrong but I experienced the same reading last month setting up an 80 series unit. Average living room, average furnishings, etc., etc., using Fuzzmeasure Pro with a calibrated mic properly setup.
 

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Thanks for the input. I'm just starting to work with all the adjustments in YPAO. I'll soon be adding a second F12 and will be at 2.2 configuration for a while. I just read up on how best to manage bass with the AVR processor YPAO initial settings, in conjunction with the gain knob on my sub. I'm going to concentrate on getting proficient on bass management and going further into how to properly understand and use YPAO PEQ modes, and why I am perceiving Through correction as better sound, or if i'm simply making mistakes with YPAO.

The difference I perceive when switching between the parametric modes Flat and Through is Flat is thin with less bass, and Through was more full, and more bass. My perception being that with full sound, while still maintaining the instrument/vocal/channel separation clarity I'm really liking with the A2080, is currently more appealing to me.
This is a good example of why YPAO works as it does vs. Audyssey, Yamaha never wants to drastically change the timbre of a customers speakers which is why you prefer Through, you like the way they sound. That is a good thing, which is why they offer "Front" EQ which is their attempt at matching the timbre of your fronts to the remaining channels if you have them. Front EQ does not apply correction to your front channels.

Stick with through and use the tone controls in the option menu to make personal adjustments that you can save per scene or set back to default with no harm done

Also, the F12 subs work really well with the gain control around 11 o'clock. The gain control on the Rythmik's was designed to help blend in the fronts and is not designed to be a level or volume control for the sub which some subs are incorrectly labeled.
 

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Flat is not flat no matter how you measure, there is some increase/boost at the high end. Every room is different, I measured a room that had a wrap around sectional sofa unit, carpet floors, draperies hanging to the floor and Flat had a boost, Natural was almost flat. I set up a 50 series in a studio apartment that was a mill renovation in the city that was an echo chamber, with the treble control -6 it wasn't flat. Yamaha has discussed this before as well as other calibrators with experience using YPAO.

There is a cut applied to CD audio as well as video media for home use that Yamaha attempts to account for, that was the reasoning as of several years ago, to my knowledge nothing has changed. I may well be wrong but I experienced the same reading last month setting up an 80 series unit. Average living room, average furnishings, etc., etc., using Fuzzmeasure Pro with a calibrated mic properly setup.
I am measuring the same thing. I'm at work or I'd post the results. But I re-ran YPAO over the weekend and saved off REW sweeps for "Through", "Natural", and "Flat".

Interestingly, guess which one was actually flat? It was "Through" (ie. no YPAO applied).

"Flat" had the highest boost to the highs. "Natural" was next (highs not as boosted), and "Through" was actually pretty flat.

I have acoustic absorption in my room so I wondered if it is trying to compensate for that (?) It makes more sense that they are compensating for engineered roll-off as H Stevens suggested.

I notice some benefit from RSC so wanted to use one of the results from YPAO. I copied "natural" to "manual", adjusted the treble control down a couple db (thanks for that suggestion H Stevens - it works well), and tweaked from there.
 

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I can't speak for anyone else and this is likely a function of my room acoustics, ears, the way YPAO auto EQ works, my measurement technique, speaker placement limitations due to practical concerns, etc... however, I definitely get both the best SQ from my speakers with PEQ Through and the MiniDSP 2x4 HD handling the sub PEQ, which I do without boost filters. This combo not only maximizes SQ, but bypassing auto EQ and boost filters in general greatly minimizes listening fatigue and harshness. I have one optimally placed sub and speakers are reasonably well placed and a global 100Hz AVR crossover provides the best integration.

I also avoid YPAO volume, tone controls, any kind of dynamic range compression, etc.

YMMV, just my 2 cents
 

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I have acoustic absorption in my room so I wondered if it is trying to compensate for that (?)
of course it does!
think about what "room correction system" means. YPAO tries to compensate the errors of your room.
if you applied absorption for high(er) frequencies YPAO tries to compensate that, that's the deal.

when I have the time I'll try do a YPAO setup without room/mic by feeding the mic input with the pre out signal. That's the only way to see the target curve of YPAO. The remaining error is the internal mic calibration if there is one. The alternative would be to do a YPAO setup in the near field (about 3ft in front of the speaker and just look at this one).
 

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wanted to weigh in on the humming noise situation people have spoken of on the 3070...
Hadn't noticed it since the receiver is in a closet, but i was redoing my wiring the other day and there is a definite electrical hum that is coming from the unit. Not bothersome unless right next to it, and not noticeable at all when not in the closet, but it is there. May bother some if it is out in the open around the seating area, but only if it is dead quite
 
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of course it does!
think about what "room correction system" means. YPAO tries to compensate the errors of your room.
if you applied absorption for high(er) frequencies YPAO tries to compensate that, that's the deal.

when I have the time I'll try do a YPAO setup without room/mic by feeding the mic input with the pre out signal. That's the only way to see the target curve of YPAO. The remaining error is the internal mic calibration if there is one. The alternative would be to do a YPAO setup in the near field (about 3ft in front of the speaker and just look at this one).
Interesting. So they (Yamaha) are using expectations from both the direct sound *and* reflections? Since I don't have reflections (not much anyway) then they boost the HF because the measured SPL was lower than what they expected? (because there were no reflections). Hmmm. The results from REW still show boosted HF so why does YPAO not see the same thing?

Here's some graphs I got from last night.

This is YPAO "FLAT" on my center speaker.


This is FLAT plus NATURAL. You can see that NATURAL rolls off the HF a bit.


This is the center speaker with THROUGH added. It has the least boost to HF. You can see that YPAO had fixed some ugliness in the midrange.


Here's where I took NATURAL and tweaked it in MANUAL.


It would be nice to understand what YPAO is doing (ie. why does it boost HF) but I'm happy as long as I can get the results I want.
 

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