[Dirt Hauler]

I went to a local Tweeter store to give a listen to the Sony 5ES and Pioneer Elite receivers some of which were on sale. I have a Denon so I am very familiar with how good they are. I did't mention or even care about Yamaha because I did not like them at all when I tried them out a few years ago.I wanted to upgrade to 6 .1 and ProLogic 2.The store was pretty quiet so I was talking to the salesman in 1 of the sound rooms. The music playing in the background sounded great. Not to loud or soft. When I asked which receiver was playing we had to turn a few volume knobs to find the right one. I know your ahead of me here but I have to say I'll end up with the 1200 or 2200. Very impressive to me.And a pleasant surprise. What I 'm saying is from now on I'll try to listen with no preconceived notions.

Sorry for being so long!

Dirt Hauler

 

[Dirt Hauler]

To finish off. The Elite's were sold out and the Sony 3ES was more in my price range than the Sony 5ES but without Pro Logic 2, Iwas really not interested.

Thanks

 

[bob23_60201]

Yamaha makes excellent receivers. Congrats!


They also have excellent build quality and reliability.

 

[ClarkeBar]

Dirt Hauler,


This is not a knock on Yammy but the 1200 is underpowered in multi-channel as per the Jan/02 S&V test which can be found here:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Holl...1/ratevsac.htm

along with a lot of other results.


This is not to say that the receiver is not a good one. Just that it pays to KNOW what you are buying instead of what you THINK you are buying.

The 2200 is a superb performer by all accounts.

 

[Dirt Hauler]

ClarkeBar,

Thanks for the heads up. I will look into further.

Dirt Hauler

PS

WOW! That chart was quite an eye opener.

Thanks again.

 

[bob23_60201]

Trust your ears. That chart has it's uses, but it will not tell you what is the best receiver to match your speakers and to match your listening preferences.


By the way, look at the Yamaha RX-V1's numbers across the board...simply fantastic

 

[Rizz]

I find it quite surprising that they don't list the Denon 3802, Harman Kardon 520, or the Marantz 8200 (Holy S!*T...can those Marantz 7200 measurements be right? If so, how is it legal for marantz to claim 100+ wpc?)

 

[wje]

Quote:

By the way, look at the Yamaha RX-V1's numbers across the board...simply fantastic

Most of the flagship receivers don't have trouble meeting their ratings in regards to power. It's the next 9 receivers in their line-up that can't quite cut the mustard.

 

[turbobuick86]

I agree with Rizz. These results are pretty dramatic and some discrepancies are down-right scary to me as a consumer. How can manufacturers claim 100w when it's measured at 27?? Is it a measurement system that's not standard or is completely void of a standard?


A while back Ford advertised their Mustang Cobras at higher horse power ratings than they actually delivered. Ford bit the bullet and made modifications to achieve their advertised claims with current owners.


Has this list been updated? I can't find "stereoreview.com"

Then again, I'm not sure I want to see my receiver's stats if they're going to be a small percentage of what I paid for.


Terry

 

[ClarkeBar]

Stereo Review became Sound & Vision. This is the current website:
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/index.asp

Consumers should know the truth about the products they buy. I try to correlate the testing data from several sources, some of which I'll list below:
http://www.ecoustics.com/Home/Home_A...ivers_Reviews/
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/index.html
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/


Each of these sites engage in or provide some form of meaningful testing of equipment. The British sites speak of the 'Fidelity Firewall' which is the most honest power rating of any receiver IMO. You would be surprised how many well known and dearly loved receivers fall quite a bit short of their supposed power claims at the point of distortion.

 

[ThomasH]

The http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Holl...1/ratevsac.htm

is not working.


Does anyone have a link to its new location?


Tom

 

[bob23_60201]

"Most of the flagship receivers don't have trouble meeting their ratings in regards to power. It's the next 9 receivers in their line-up that can't quite cut the mustard."


There are a lot of happy Yamaha owners out there (many who have directly compared them to other receivers in the price range like Denon), most who do not own RX-V1's, DSP-A1's, and RX-Z1's. People should ultimately go with what sounds best to them (preferrably listening at home, using their particular associated equipment).

 

[SD4934]

I'm on my third Yamaha receiver (set got the RXV 1200) and I have been

very pleased with all of them. Stats can tell you some things but what my ears hear is more important to me than stats. Most reviews of Yamaha receivers that I have read have been good (stats not withstanding).

 

[RichardMA]

Yamaha RX-V870 ProLogic receiver: Noisy, not very impressive.

Yamaha RX-V2090/DDP-1 DD processor: Good sound, but no power reserves to speak of. Shut down frequently when driven hard, especially

with 4 ohm load.

Yamaha 3090 DD preamp/power amp: Very good unit. Flawless operation

and excellent sound quality.

Yamaha RX-1100U. Stereo receiver. Very good, close to a Rotel separate

in stereo quality.

Yamaha CR-2020 upper end stereo receiver. Excellent sound, power to

spare, but prone to power switch failure.


All in all, a pretty good track record with me.

 

[SD4934]

I subscribe to Sound & Vision. I found my January '02 copy and reread the

review of the RXC 1200. It was an excellent review. More than once the

reviewer talked about its ample power. The stats were not even alluded to

in the body of the review.

 

[ClarkeBar]

Which is precisely why the usefulness of such reviewing is under question. There are routine, 'mailed in', reviews of products which people on this and other forums know full well have problems. How many times are these problems even mentioned? Usually these jokers act as shills and the S&V test review of the RX-V1200 is a perfect example. What is the sound of 27 Watts clapping?


You know, there are British sites that also routinely test equipment and are not afraid to point out the obvious departures from spec. This doesn't mean that any particular equipment (receiver, in this case) won't sound good or have many useful virtues. But SIGNIFICANT DEPARTURES FROM SPEC should give cause for concern. Any reviewer or review source who glosses over such deviations is not worth reading. The continuing trend in receivers is to add more channels of amplification...more surround modes, etc. and all at a magical price not far from last years. Maybe even less!


And then people wonder how 100 or 90 or 80 watts turns into 27 or 30.

You get what you pay for. Period.

 

[SD4934]

And then you can go to Audioreview.com and read excellent reviews of the

RXV 1200 from people who are actually using the receiver in their homes and in average systems. They are not on anybodys payroll and report the good along with the bad from their experiences with the equipment. I realize the reviews in the different AV magazines can be taken with somewhat of a grain of salt (but I have read not so favorable reviews also).

My point is that we can't depdend only on statistics for our purchases. Real

world performance is an even bigger factor. I'm saying, before we buy we

should be educated in all aspects and not rely on just one.

 

[bob23_60201]

I agree with you. I had actually compared a top of the line denon to a yamaha dsp-A1 in my home, and the dsp-A1 sounded much clearer and more natural with my speakers, even though the denon had more specified watts of power. And of course, Yamaha reliability is top-notch, another thing to consider when purchasing.

 

[ClarkeBar]

Ageed...absolutely.


My knock isn't aimed at Yamaha. I happen to like their products and currently use a Yamaha center channel. My gripe is against the growing trend of obfuscation, deception, and downright misrepresentation of products by many manufacturers. And the glossing over or downright ignoring of these practices by those who purport to examine these products. Any particular issue with a product may not be a deal breaker when it comes to purchase. But a significant issue such as real world power with a receiver is important enough to warrant a mention. When that mention is not made, the smell factor goes off the charts. How many reviewers of Toshiba 4700 & 5700 DVD players never mention Chroma Bug and yet give them their highest rating. Again, this is not a knock on Toshiba as these players otherwise are very good. But reviewers who fail to mention what any half-brained reader of these forums already knows is an incompetent boob or a shill...certainly anything but an expert.


I know full well that Yamaha is a quality manufacturer but even they can and have succumbed to the shortcuts that are inherent in trying to deliver more product for less money. The RX-V1200, the Sony DB1070, the Marantz 7200 to name a few, are just the latest examples of power shortcomings in multi-channel use. This will continue to happen until consumers stop saying 'gee, it sounds nice to me'.

 

[bob23_60201]

Did Marantz ever send a second unit to be retested? I know some people were wondering if the unit tested was a lemon


That is another issue...you never know exactly how reliable those tests are with respect to the actual product that you purchase. For instance, I heard that a Mission subwoofer tested (by Nousaine) extremely well the first time, but when it was retested a year or two later, it tested much worse. And it could go both ways, good-to-bad or bad-to-good. Who knows.