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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I went over to have one last look at the Panasonic PT-50LC13 before I laid my money down. A soccer game was playing on HDNet. The screen door effect was so pronounced that I put my wallet back in my pocked and am now reconsidering my decision to buy this set. When the camera was zoomed back and panning across the green field, I could easily see the screen door from 10 feet. My vision is not 20/20 and the salesman even agreed with me.


The only other rear projection LCD they had on the floor was a Sony 50XBR800 which was playing the same soccer game. I could still see the screen door but it did not seem to distract me the way it did on the Panny. The screen pattern was more even whereas the Panasonic seemed to have streaks of darker and lighter bands of "screen".


I very much like this set but I don't want to regret taking it home even though I have a 30 day return. PT-50LC23 owners, do any of you have regrets?
 

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Honestly?


I noticed the screen door effect on a floor model but the picture was so good I went and bought it anyway.


Since then, I really have not noticed the effect even when watching football on HDTV.


YMMV
 

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I never notice SDE when I had my Panny. Since then tho, I do see it at various times on my Hitachi but it is only briefly and usually on bad feeds.

I do not see this as a major problem like some purport it to be.
 

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I wonder if they are actually seeing SDE? You would have to have extremely good eye sight to resolve the space between pixels from a normal viewing distance.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Ein
I wonder if they are actually seeing SDE? You would have to have extremely good eye sight to resolve the space between pixels from a normal viewing distance.
I've often wondered the same thing. At times I'll see something that looks like there is something static, unmoving and transparent obscuring the picture just a little. Sounds like a similar effect to me.


When I actually concentrate on it, though, I notice it's not the screen door effect as it has been described. I think what I'm seeing sometimes is just noise staying still while the picture moves. I'm pretty sure the noise is digital, and part of the signal, however. I know MPEG compression can introduce such artifacts, so it may just be the phenomenal resolution of my TV that's letting me see it. In that case, I'm fine with it. :)
 

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Most people describe that as a "veiled" look. I too think or am convinced that it is source specific while others suggest it's to do with the actual screen. I only see it on certain channels of SD and never on DVD's or Xbox.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by arkid
Most people describe that as a "veiled" look. I too think or am convinced that it is source specific while others suggest it's to do with the actual screen. I only see it on certain channels of SD and never on DVD's or Xbox.
You're right -- it's most certainly not the screen. I've never seen it on the most pristine source I've got, which at the moment is a PS2 at 480p.


I think I may have seen it on a rare HD feed, but those are MPEG2 as well, no? In any case, it's very minor and not a function of viewing distance.


(Interestingly, I've never heard the term "veiled". I think that's an apt description, though.)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
These comments are exactly what I was hoping to see. I probably should have called the post subject "Yikes! Screen door?" since I am not sure that's what I see. The veiled look is a more accurate description since it seems to be darker in areas, lighter in other areas. I'm sure that the tolerance between pixels in an LCD panel is very tight and would cause a much more even appearance of the "screen door" than what I am seeing.


To be fair, the Panasonic was not near the Sony. Different wiring, different inputs (I did not look to see which input each was using), and different lighting are all possible culprits. I did have to be much closer on the Sony to see any pattern in the image.


If possible, watch a soccer game where there are no lines on the field like American football and the field is a solid green. On a static image, I don't see it but when the camera starts to follow a moving ball, the problem jumps out at me (watch a green area, not the ball). I can compare it to how an airplane outside your driver's side window catches your eye - all of the clouds appear to move opposite the direction of the car but that airplane isn't moving with them and your eye is drawn to it. This pattern seems to be stuck to the screen and instead of following the ball, my eyes remained fixed on the same portion of the screen.
 

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Sawdustmaker, I know exactly what you're talking about, and you described it very well. I'm not sure if this is SDE, the screen material itself, MPEG induced artifacts, or a combination of one or more of these things, but I find it distracting.


Maybe it's because the Panasonic's focus is sharper than other LCD RPTVs. If I go up close to the Panasonic, the screen door is definitely more visible than the Hitachi, the GWII, and the GWIII. Just a theory.
 

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From what I've seen there's two different things with the Panny. It shows the veiled look very prominently and it also shows the vertical light/dark banding that sawdustmaker describes. Very even, across the whole screen. It looks to me like the intensity of the banding problem may be source related to a degree (and maybe it is related to screen door somehow?), but I think it's a different, separate issue from the veiled look. Suffice to say, to me the Panny has the least refined screen/image of the bunch whatever the cause. The picture is very sharp though and the set is pleasing to the eye physically.


ron
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by R11
pleasing to the eye physically
I guess my eyes aren't as shallow as yours.

My eyes have evolved past the need for physical

pleasure, and I find I tend to have a more pleasant

viewing experience if my eyes are content and

experiencing a feeling of emotional wellbeing. ;)


:p
 

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I know what you are talking about.


But, trying being that critical on a CRT or Plasma or any TV. I did and noticed that NONE of them did a perfect picture during a scan.


So I think when you watch one blade of grass during a fast scan, NO tv will consistently show that blade of grass perfectly.


So I've lowered my standard. When that ball is kicked and flying and spinning and I say 'look I can't read the writing on the ball anymore' then I'm being unrealistic. But, when that ball is sitting still and on some displays I CAN read the writing on the ball and others I CANNOT, then I have a realistic comparison.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Rob_Z
I know what you are talking about.


But, trying being that critical on a CRT or Plasma or any TV. I did and noticed that NONE of them did a perfect picture during a scan.


So I think when you watch one blade of grass during a fast scan, NO tv will consistently show that blade of grass perfectly.


So I've lowered my standard. When that ball is kicked and flying and spinning and I say 'look I can't read the writing on the ball anymore' then I'm being unrealistic.
I'm not sure you do know what we're talking about, since it has nothing to do with a blade of grass or lettering on a flying ball, and the problem isn't so much with a "fast scan," it's more noticeable on very slow pans.


I can't speak for anyone else here, but all of my viewing of the Panasonic has been in comparison to other LCD, LCOS, and DLP RPTVs. The Panasonic has this issue, some of the others might too but not to the same degree. I'm not holding the Panasonic to a higher standard, I'm seeing something bothersome on the Panasonic that isn't bothersome to me on the other TVs.
 

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Quote:
I guess my eyes aren't as shallow as yours.

My eyes have evolved past the need for physical

pleasure, and I find I tend to have a more pleasant

viewing experience if my eyes are content and

experiencing a feeling of emotional wellbeing.
LOL. No long term commitment and emotional involvement for these eyeballs!


I guess I should have just said I think the case looks good as opposed to the PQ :)


ron
 

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I can see SDE quite easily at about 8 feet, even from DVD sources. However, I really have to concentrate and look for it, it's most prevalent to me in very bright scenes. The first time I really noticed it was during LotR:TTT, the opening scenes of the snowy mountains make it easy for me to pick out SDE.


That being said, it is a minor annoyance at best and really does not bother me that much. If it did bother me a lot I would have returned the set.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by benchiu
I can see SDE quite easily at about 8 feet.

However, I really have to concentrate and look for it.
Not trying to be picky but isn't that a contradiction? :confused:


I can't see it from 10' even if I tried.
 

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I guess it's a bit of a contradiction. I can see it, I could point it out pretty easily, especially on a bright background. However I have to be looking for it, it doesn't distract me during normal viewing. I usually "forget" it's there.


Perhaps that might be even more of a contradiction, but that's the best way I can describe it.
 

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This was one of the main reasons why i returned my PT-50LC13. The SDE effect started to gnaw on me & eventually I had enough of it & exchanged it for a Sammy DLP
 

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I believe what you are seeing is actually some thing called," FIXED PATTERN NOISE",which is a problem with most lcd based units. It can be very problamatic on front projection units, which are projecting a substantially larger picture, than a rear projection set. The visual manifestation, is that of vertical areas, that are a few inches wide, and run the entire vertical area of the screen, and they can have slightly different shadings. They usually show up,when there is a horizontal pan.


As the above poster mentions, it is very unlikely you are seeing "SCREEN DOOR" on such a small set, as the actual pixel spacing would be to close, unless you had your nose, right up against the screen. There are some adjustments that can help to lessen the effect of FIXED PATTERN NOISE, but normally requires a tech to do. It can very from set to set, with in the same model. Perhaps the paticular unit you looked at wasnt "adjusted" very well, in this regard.
 
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