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Your input pls: DefTech vs Paradigm setup for my dedicated theatre room

6868 Views 73 Replies 14 Participants Last post by Soulburner, Aug 17, 2021

Megalodon

Discussion Starter · Aug 5, 2021

Hello folks, have been posting in the theatre design thread on my build, but now that framing of new home is underway, I want to lock down my speakers. For reference here is a picture of the theatre layout.

In working with my Audio installer, he had a DefTech 9060 setup in his demo room, that had L+R 9060 towers. I was completely blown away by them, and that is the direction I am thinking of going, along with the 9060C, plus the rest of the surround, and Atmos speakers by Def Tech. Probably will add a 10" or 12" sub in the niche in the rear of the room.

What is making things complicated is that the other choice he recommended for me, and said I would not be disappointed one bit was a Paradigm setup. He also said he would lean that way. Problem is he didnt have any to demo, so it would be almost a blind buy. Net net, he told me I could not go wrong with either setup. The Paradigm LCR he is recommending is the Millenia LP XL. He told me would lean slightly the Paradigm route for aesthetics, on wall vs floor standing, and the overall cheaper package price. My question to the forum, has anyone actually heard the Millenia LP XL, and what are your thoughts? Option A and B below, Im sure there is an Option C, but which option would you pick between A or B? Thank you!

Option A:
Amplification & Speakers:
1 Marantz SR8015 11-channel Atmos Surround Receiver
Theatre Speakers:
2 Definitive Technology BP9060 Tower Speakers (with builtin 10" subs)
1 Definitive Technology CS-9060 Center Speaker
4 Def Tech DI UIW RSS III In-wall Surround Speakers (sides+rear)
4 Def Tech DI6-R In-ceiling Speakers (Atmos)
1 MartinLogan Dynamo 1100X 12" Subwoofer

Option B:
Amplification & Speakers:
1 Marantz SR8015 11-channel Atmos Surround Receiver
Theatre Speakers:
3 Paradigm Millenia LP XL Ultra Thin on Wall (Left Centre Right)
2 Paradigm Surround 3 on-wall (sides)
2 Paradigm Cinema 200 on wall (rear)
4 Paradigm P-65R Pro ceiling speakers (Atmos)
1 MartinLogan Dynamo 1100X 12" Subwoofer

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Zorba922

· #2 · Aug 5, 2021

Megalodon said:
Hello folks, have been posting in the theatre design thread on my build, but now that framing of new home is underway, I want to lock down my speakers. For reference here is a picture of the theatre layout.

In working with my Audio installer, he had a DefTech 9060 setup in his demo room, that had L+R 9060 towers. I was completely blown away by them, and that is the direction I am thinking of going, along with the 9060C, plus the rest of the surround, and Atmos speakers by Def Tech. Probably will add a 10" or 12" sub in the niche in the rear of the room.

What is making things complicated is that the other choice he recommended for me, and said I would not be disappointed one bit was a Paradigm setup. He also said he would lean that way. Problem is he didnt have any to demo, so it would be almost a blind buy. Net net, he told me I could not go wrong with either setup. The Paradigm LCR he is recommending is the Millenia LP XL. He told me would lean slightly the Paradigm route for aesthetics, on wall vs floor standing, and the overall cheaper package price. My question to the forum, has anyone actually heard the Millenia LP XL, and what are your thoughts? Option A and B below, Im sure there is an Option C, but which option would you pick between A or B? Thank you!

Option A:
Amplification & Speakers:
1 Marantz SR8015 11-channel Atmos Surround Receiver
Theatre Speakers:
2 Definitive Technology BP9060 Tower Speakers (with builtin 10" subs)
1 Definitive Technology CS-9060 Center Speaker
4 Def Tech DI UIW RSS III In-wall Surround Speakers (sides+rear)
4 Def Tech DI6-R In-ceiling Speakers (Atmos)
1 MartinLogan Dynamo 1100X 12" Subwoofer

Option B:
Amplification & Speakers:
1 Marantz SR8015 11-channel Atmos Surround Receiver
Theatre Speakers:
3 Paradigm Millenia LP XL Ultra Thin on Wall (Left Centre Right)
2 Paradigm Surround 3 on-wall (sides)
2 Paradigm Cinema 200 on wall (rear)
4 Paradigm P-65R Pro ceiling speakers (Atmos)
1 MartinLogan Dynamo 1100X 12" Subwoofer

1. Buy nothing from your installer, not even cables or (if he's pushing these you know he's a huckster) a power conditioner / surge protector. Pay him for installation labor ONLY, and that would be only for any in-wall or in-ceiling speakers.

2. There is NEVER EVER any reason to buy the sub from the same brand as the speakers. Anyone who tells you there is, is incredibly sleazy and/or incredibly ignorant.

3. You're much better off going with subwoofer specialist companies like Hsu, Rythmik, SVS, PSA, etc. for your sub. For instance, that ML 1100X sub that retails for $1300 would get eaten for lunch by a $600 SVS PB1000 Pro, let alone a $900 Hsu VTF-3.

Option A indicates that you are not married to the idea of doing housewife-pleasing ultra-thin "lifestyle" on-wall speakers. That's a big relief. But you'd be better off with any number of conventional in-room speakers OTHER THAN Def Tech.

In Canada, your best bang for the buck would be the Paradigm Monitor SE series, but I'd upgrade to their Premier 500C or even better, 600C center instead of the SE center.

SVS subs are available at a number of retailers in Canada, for surprisingly non-insane prices compared to their US prices.

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Reactions: 2

Soulburner

· #3 · Aug 5, 2021

I think you are artificially limiting your choices and there are better options.

You listed both floor standers and on-walls. Do you have a preference? Nail that down first.

Soulburner

· #4 · Aug 5, 2021

The AVR is fine, but also look at the Denon AVR-X6500H. Most of us lean toward Denon for its better audio linearity and bang/buck. The units are otherwise sisters of each other.

If doing Paradigm, I would do the Premier line (like the 800F) as it seems to be the most neutral without getting into the megabucks Founders edition.

And agree with Zorba on the subs. We can get you way better bang for the buck.

Reactions: 2

Megalodon

Discussion Starter · #5 · Aug 5, 2021

Thank you for quick reply!

Yes, he was more bullish on Paradigm then the DefTech, but there was just something enthralling about the way the 9060's sounded. Probably due to that Bipolar trick. And thank you for the tip on the sub. I will look into SVS!

Totally flexible with on-wall vs floor, but leaning toward floor. This is like the only room in the house that is mine, so will do the right thing.

I am curious why the 9060's are on the bad list for you though, they just sounded so good to me. Maybe my ear is just not trained properly.

Zorba922 said:
1. Buy nothing from your installer, not even cables or (if he's pushing these you know he's a huckster) a power conditioner / surge protector. Pay him for installation labor ONLY, and that would be only for any in-wall or in-ceiling speakers.

2. There is NEVER EVER any reason to buy the sub from the same brand as the speakers. Anyone who tells you there is, is incredibly sleazy and/or incredibly ignorant.

3. You're much better off going with subwoofer specialist companies like Hsu, Rythmik, SVS, PSA, etc. for your sub. For instance, that ML 1100X sub that retails for $1300 would get eaten for lunch by a $600 SVS PB1000 Pro, let alone a $900 Hsu VTF-3.

Option A indicates that you are not married to the idea of doing housewife-pleasing ultra-thin "lifestyle" on-wall speakers. That's a big relief. But you'd be better off with any number of conventional in-room speakers OTHER THAN Def Tech.

In Canada, your best bang for the buck would be the Paradigm Monitor SE series, but I'd upgrade to their Premier 500C or even better, 600C center instead of the SE center.

SVS subs are available at a number of retailers in Canada, for surprisingly non-insane prices compared to their US prices.

Megalodon

Discussion Starter · #6 · Aug 5, 2021

Thank you! Will check out the Denon as well. And your post resonates with the feedback above. Re. Paradigm Premier.

I knew I would receive some Option C) posts

Thanks again.

Soulburner said:
The AVR is fine, but also look at the Denon AVR-X6500H. Most of us lean toward Denon for its better audio linearity and bang/buck. The units are otherwise sisters of each other.

If doing Paradigm, I would do the Premier line (like the 800F) as it seems to be the most neutral without getting into the megabucks Founders edition.

And agree with Zorba on the subs. We can get you way better bang for the buck.

Soulburner

· #7 · Aug 5, 2021

Megalodon said:
I am curious why the 9060's are on the bad list for you though, they just sounded so good to me. Maybe my ear is just not trained properly.

They may captivate you at first listen, but they will get tiring as the treble is tipped up.

Reactions: 1

Zorba922

· #8 · Aug 5, 2021

Megalodon said:
Yes, he was more bullish on Paradigm then the DefTech, but there was just something enthralling about the way the 9060's sounded. Probably due to that Bipolar trick. And thank you for the tip on the sub. I will look into SVS!

Totally flexible with on-wall vs floor, but leaning toward floor. This is like the only room in the house that is mine, so will do the right thing.

I am curious why the 9060's are on the bad list for you though, they just sounded so good to me. Maybe my ear is just not trained properly.

The 9060s being bipolar will have a somewhat more immersive effect spatially, plus if you are new to speakers it's easy to be impressed by a more treble-intense presentation. The drawback to bipolar speakers is that they need lots of room around them to produce those spatial qualities (e.g. useless if you are going to put them close to a rear wall or in a corner). Def Tech speakers generally tend to impress newbies due to their smiley-shaped EQ curve, pretty cabinets, catchy brand name, and pricetags inflated-to-impress. They have their hardcore fans too, but most DT owners buy them when first entering this hobby, then after trying other better speakers (and "better" in this case does not mean "costing more" in fact quite the opposite) they tend never to go back to DT speakers. That speaks volumes, imo.

If your usage is mainly TV/movies/gaming not music, the Paradigm SE series for your front mains and surrounds will be fine as long as you go with a better center from the Premier series. If aesthetics are not a big deal for you, the other high price-to-performance option in Canada are the Emotiva speakers which you can get shipped from the US for a nominal $10 fee without any customs/duties if you have them ship by USPS not UPS/Fedex.

emotiva.com

Loudspeakers

A loudspeaker is the voice of your home theater or stereo system. Emotiva designs speakers to deliver sound just as it was recorded. Shop online today!

emotiva.com

They look much better in real life than on the terrible website photos, btw.

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Reactions: 1

Megalodon

Discussion Starter · #9 · Aug 5, 2021

Thanks for this. And newbie I am! Side question - do the Demand D15 sit in the same camp? I think they lose the bipolar trick, but do you still place Paradigm above those guys? A quick glance at a couple reviews, they appear to be decent.

Anyways -- tonnes of research and review reading ahead of me this weekend. I already read a bunch of reviews earlier that says -- choose the SVS Ultra Centre before any DefTech centre. So the whole DT picture is becoming a little cloudy, and I should really find a place to audition some Paradigm ASAP.

Cheers, and glad I created this post!

Zorba922 said:
The 9060s being bipolar will have a somewhat more immersive effect spatially, plus if you are new to speakers it's easy to be impressed by a more treble-intense presentation. The drawback to bipolar speakers is that they need lots of room around them to produce those spatial qualities (e.g. useless if you are going to put them close to a rear wall or in a corner). Def Tech speakers generally tend to impress newbies due to their smiley-shaped EQ curve, pretty cabinets, catchy brand name, and pricetags inflated-to-impress. They have their hardcore fans too, but most DT owners buy them when first entering this hobby, then after trying other better speakers (and "better" in this case does not mean "costing more" in fact quite the opposite) they tend never to go back to DT speakers. That speaks volumes, imo.

If your usage is mainly TV/movies/gaming not music, the Paradigm SE series for your front mains and surrounds will be fine as long as you go with a better center from the Premier series. If aesthetics are not a big deal for you, the other high price-to-performance option in Canada are the Emotiva speakers which you can get shipped from the US for a nominal $10 fee without any customs/duties if you have them ship by USPS not UPS/Fedex.

Loudspeakers

A loudspeaker is the voice of your home theater or stereo system. Emotiva designs speakers to deliver sound just as it was recorded. Shop online today!

emotiva.com

They look much better in real life than on the terrible website photos, btw.
View attachment 3161587

buckchester

· #10 · Aug 5, 2021

The Paradigm Premiers don't appear very neutral according to Soundstage's measurements :

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: Paradigm Premier 100B Loudspeakers

www.soundstagenetwork.com

J. Atkinson

· #11 · Aug 5, 2021

Megalodon said:
Hello folks, have been posting in the theatre design thread on my build, but now that framing of new home is underway, I want to lock down my speakers. For reference here is a picture of the theatre layout.

View attachment 3161569

In working with my Audio installer, he had a DefTech 9060 setup in his demo room, that had L+R 9060 towers. I was completely blown away by them, and that is the direction I am thinking of going, along with the 9060C, plus the rest of the surround, and Atmos speakers by Def Tech. Probably will add a 10" or 12" sub in the niche in the rear of the room.

What is making things complicated is that the other choice he recommended for me, and said I would not be disappointed one bit was a Paradigm setup. He also said he would lean that way. Problem is he didnt have any to demo, so it would be almost a blind buy. Net net, he told me I could not go wrong with either setup. The Paradigm LCR he is recommending is the Millenia LP XL. He told me would lean slightly the Paradigm route for aesthetics, on wall vs floor standing, and the overall cheaper package price. My question to the forum, has anyone actually heard the Millenia LP XL, and what are your thoughts? Option A and B below, Im sure there is an Option C, but which option would you pick between A or B? Thank you!

Option A:
Amplification & Speakers:
1 Marantz SR8015 11-channel Atmos Surround Receiver
Theatre Speakers:
2 Definitive Technology BP9060 Tower Speakers (with builtin 10" subs)
1 Definitive Technology CS-9060 Center Speaker
4 Def Tech DI UIW RSS III In-wall Surround Speakers (sides+rear)
4 Def Tech DI6-R In-ceiling Speakers (Atmos)
1 MartinLogan Dynamo 1100X 12" Subwoofer

Option B:
Amplification & Speakers:
1 Marantz SR8015 11-channel Atmos Surround Receiver
Theatre Speakers:
3 Paradigm Millenia LP XL Ultra Thin on Wall (Left Centre Right)
2 Paradigm Surround 3 on-wall (sides)
2 Paradigm Cinema 200 on wall (rear)
4 Paradigm P-65R Pro ceiling speakers (Atmos)
1 MartinLogan Dynamo 1100X 12" Subwoofer

1. What is your budget?

First, I would recommend listening to a Yamaha Receiver. Compare. If you lean DT, you’ll lean Yamaha (they just have a wider sound stage). Denon is good, too. However they all have a different sound. NAD though would at that price point be your best sounding receiver. However your opinion may very. If you go listen to a Yamaha and NAD and compare and pick what you like best, you’ll be happy.

Second, I would go find your nearest Totem Acoustic dealer. You’re in Canada, they are everywhere there. If you want wide open sound stage with clarity and non boomy bass, go compare them to Paradigm. Paradigm won’t be in the same ball park. Plus they’re smaller and generally spouses like them.

Third, look up a Golden Ear dealer. Compare that to DT, Paradigm, and Totem. DT’s main designer left and created Golden Ear. So you may prefer that sound the most.

Again listen to Totem and Golden Ear. I bet you go with one of those. Totem is in my mind the best bang for the buck speaker line on the planet. The main reason is most speaker companies use a multiplier of 5 for pricing. Totem uses a multiplier of 4. Example: speaker costs $200 to build. Most speaker companies sell that for $1,000 MSRP. Totem sells it for $800 MSRP.

The problem with that approach is it leaves less money for commissions to the marketing firms and rep firms out there so they push the line less. Thus it’s pushed on dealers less and then it’s pushed on consumers less.

That is the main reason the brand isn’t as popular. Sound quality wise they’re one of the best kept secrets in audio.

I would also recommend testing out any planar speaker to see if that sound impresses more (Magnepan, Martin Logan electrostats) .

Fourth, getting subwoofer advice online will always have people say SVS and or HSU. True audiophiles however will tell you to go buy a used Snell, or find an Ascendo dealer. Ascendo hands down makes the best subs in the world right now.

Finally, if you want to try the speakers that have been getting reviewers excited over the last few years there is Tekton Design. That’s the flavor of the month right now. I should have mentioned them before.

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buckchester

· #12 · Aug 5, 2021

J. Atkinson said:
1. What is your budget?

First, I would recommend listening to a Yamaha Receiver. Compare. If you lean DT, you’ll lean Yamaha (they just have a wider sound stage). Denon is good, too. However they all have a different sound. NAD though would at that price point be your best sounding receiver. However your opinion may very. If you go listen to a Yamaha and NAD and compare and pick what you like best, you’ll be happy.

Second, I would go find your nearest Totem Acoustic dealer. You’re in Canada, they are everywhere there. If you want wide open sound stage with clarity and non boomy bass, go compare them to Paradigm. Paradigm won’t be in the same ball park. Plus they’re smaller and generally spouses like them.

Third, look up a Golden Ear dealer. Compare that to DT, Paradigm, and Totem. DT’s main designer left and created Golden Ear. So you may prefer that sound the most.

Again listen to Totem and Golden Ear. I bet you go with one of those. Totem is in my mind the best bang for the buck speaker line on the planet. The main reason is most speaker companies use a multiplier of 5 for pricing. Totem uses a multiplier of 4. Example: speaker costs $200 to build. Most speaker companies sell that for $1,000 MSRP. Totem sells it for $800 MSRP.

The problem with that approach is it leaves less money for commissions to the marketing firms and rep firms out there so they push the line less. Thus it’s pushed on dealers less and then it’s pushed on consumers less.

That is the main reason the brand isn’t as popular. Sound quality wise they’re one of the best kept secrets in audio.

I would also recommend testing out any planar speaker to see if that sound impresses more (Magnepan, Martin Logan electrostats) .

Fourth, getting subwoofer advice online will always have people say SVS and or HSU. True audiophiles however will tell you to go buy a used Snell, or find an Ascendo dealer. Ascendo hands down makes the best subs in the world right now.

Finally, if you want to try the speakers that have been getting reviewers excited over the last few years there is Tekton Design. That’s the flavor of the month right now. I should have mentioned them before.

OP: IMO this is poor advice.

Totem speakers are full of resonances and not very neutral. Both undesirable qualities. I definitely would not call them "bang for buck".

GE speakers are good. I own a pair. But there are better choices. Especially since they jacked the prices up since selling the company to Snake Oil Inc. Oops, I meant Audioquest.

Very few measurements of Tekton out there. Hard to know what to believe. However, if you read through the owners thread on here, you will see many people with buyers remorse due to poor customer service.

J. Atkinson

· #13 · Aug 5, 2021 (Edited)

.

Soulburner

· #14 · Aug 5, 2021

buckchester said:
The Paradigm Premiers don't appear very neutral according to Soundstage's measurements :

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: Paradigm Premier 100B Loudspeakers

www.soundstagenetwork.com

I don't know what is wrong with the 100b bookshelf. The 800F measured really well at Audioholics.

buckchester

· #15 · Aug 5, 2021

J. Atkinson said:
If you’re going to make claims give me the data to back your claim.

I want measurements done in an Anechoic chamber. Back up your claim.

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: Totem Acoustic Signature One Loudspeakers

www.soundstagenetwork.com

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: Totem Acoustic Sky Tower Loudspeakers

www.soundstagenetwork.com

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: Totem Acoustic Tribe Tower Loudspeakers

www.soundstagenetwork.com

Some of the worst measurements I have ever seen.

buckchester

· #16 · Aug 5, 2021

Soulburner said:
I don't know what is wrong with the 100b bookshelf. The 800F measured really well at Audioholics.

The 800f did measure better. But I didn't think it measured as good as James described.

Punter16

· #17 · Aug 5, 2021

Many installers won't just install the equipment if they don't provide it. Frankly, you don't stay in business if you don't both sell equipment and install. We wouldn't work on this system if we weren't selling the gear.

Goldenear vs Def Tech: Someone mentioned the extra treble with Def Tech. I would say the opposite. The Goldenear speakers sound very accurate and defined but we notice more of an edge (which one might think of treble or a high-pitched characteristic) out of GE as compared to DT.

DT sounds great for theater. Their BP design presents a large wall of sound. It won't be as defined a soundstage but this element gives a wall of sound which can be very appealing for movies.

Go with your gut on the sound that you like. If your gut tells you that you like DT, you like DT.

Reactions: 1

derekmoore

· #18 · Aug 5, 2021

I'm one of those people that zorba mentioned that started with DT and moved on. I think they are sometimes unfairly bashed from a performance stand point but they definitely have both some pro's and con's. To me the con's out weigh the pro's however.

The main pro being the huge sound stage when properly placed. I also found I was able to get them to image extremely well. But it takes a lot of placement flexibility to get this right and will vary from room to room.

The con's being: 1) They are very placement dependent. They do best with lots of free space around them, especially off the front wall. 22" from the back of the speaker to the front wall worked best for me. I have low ceilings. YMMV. 2) the amps for the powered woofers are prone to failure. 3.) customer service has been trending downhill fast the past couple of years. This is super important due to reason #2. 4) much better value from other manufacturers, especially some of the ID brands. If you open up a DT speaker you'll notice the difference in component quality vs what you can get elsewhere straight away. 5) the powered woofers are not a sufficient replacement for stand alone subwoofers so it's money wasted, IMO. As mentioned, a well placed pair of HSU's, Rythmik's, PSA's, or for you Canadian's SVS' will trounce anything from the big name brands and especially built in "subs" from towers w/ a powered woofer design. Note, this applies to all brands, not just DT. 6) The treble was fatiguing at higher SPL levels. (-5.0MV and up for me).

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Reactions: 2

J. Atkinson

· #19 · Aug 5, 2021

buckchester said:
SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: Totem Acoustic Signature One Loudspeakers

www.soundstagenetwork.com

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: Totem Acoustic Sky Tower Loudspeakers

www.soundstagenetwork.com

SoundStageNetwork.com | SoundStage.com - NRC Measurements: Totem Acoustic Tribe Tower Loudspeakers

www.soundstagenetwork.com

Some of the worst measurements I have ever seen.

I don’t think you can read the measurements well then.

here is just an example:

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buckchester

· #20 · Aug 5, 2021

J. Atkinson said:
I don’t think you can read the measurements well then.

here is just an example:

View attachment 3161668

The Totems have both.

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