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Your Thoughts between upcoming SSP's: Classe SSP-800, Denon AVP-A1HDCI

23615 Views 104 Replies 32 Participants Last post by markrubin, Jul 31, 2008

ssabripo

Discussion Starter · Jan 22, 2008

Been waiting for something to replace my trusty and beloved Proceed AVP2+6. I thought about the Halcro SSP-100 + upgrade, but once I tried it on my home, the proceed was still better in 2-channel.

The classe SSP-800 was designed by the same team that designed the Proceed AVP2, and has lots of great features with two major shortcomings IMO:

1) lack of decoding of truHD and DTS-MA

2) Lack of any Video processing

$8k

the Denon AVP-A1HDCI will probably not have the 2channel performance of the proceed or classe ssp-800, but has lots of great features including 4 1792A DACs per channel, HQV Realta for video processing, Audyssey Pro, and dual differential outputs. $7K

wanted to get your feedback and see if you guys can lay some comments on these two pieces!

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Michael Grant

· #2 · Jan 22, 2008

I don't have any experience with either of these pieces but let me say this:

Quote:
1) lack of decoding of truHD and DTS-MA

This need not be a problem if your source device can do the decoding instead. Many Blu-Ray players can decode these codecs for you. There is no sound quality benefit to doing it in the processor.

And of course, depending upon your display, you may not need a video processor.

So if you like the Classe, I personally don't think the two cited reasons should stop you from getting it.

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GoodSonics

· #3 · Jan 22, 2008

I can only guess as neither piece is availble, but I would guess that the Denon is going to be more flexible/configurable. I would also guess the HDMI is more stable as they have had 2 years of testing on thier HDMI implementaions.

I would guess that the Classe will have a cleaner sound, even though the players will have to decode the TruHD and DTS-MA.

If you want a bug free unit out of the gate, I think that the Denon will be better for you. If you want the absolute best sound, and can deal with some instabilty at first, then the Classe should be your choice.

ssabripo

Discussion Starter · #4 · Jan 22, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant /forum/post/12897975

I don't have any experience with either of these pieces but let me say this:This need not be a problem if your source device can do the decoding instead. Many Blu-Ray players can decode these codecs for you. There is no sound quality benefit to doing it in the processor.

And of course, depending upon your display, you may not need a video processor.

So if you like the Classe, I personally don't think the two cited reasons should stop you from getting it.

I've heard the pros/cons on each side, and have personally tried both methods. Not to derail this thread, but one of the reasons I'm a bit on the "bitstream to pre/pro" camp is that letting the decoding on the player and sending to the processor (whether analog or xPCM) have had severe LFE issues on both. Studios should eventually fix this problem, but still...

Also, although video is not a big issue per se, it would be nice to have something like the HQV realta chip on board....for SD content, and 720broadcast content, it does the best job to any chip to date.

having said that, the fact that the SSP-800 will have the Proceed AVP2 DNA in it is really a big plus for me

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Michael Grant

· #5 · Jan 22, 2008

Quote:
letting the decoding on the player and sending to the processor (whether analog or xPCM) have had severe LFE issues on both.

I think this sentence is garbled; I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying here. What "LFE" issues are you talking about? And how can it be the studio's problem? If the problem is on the disc, then it's going to show up no matter where the decoding is done. If the problem is that the source device isn't decoding properly---then you need a new source device. But the same argument could be made for a processor, too.

Have you given thought to the Integra 9.8? I know it's not in the same price range but price and quality are not perfectly correlated!

rydenfan

· #6 · Jan 22, 2008

What about the new Cary Cinema 11a with HDMI 1.3? I would think that coupled with an external video processor could be a viable option? You are welcome to come to Sarasota and listen to it for yourself as soon as they release it and I get mine.

ssabripo

Discussion Starter · #7 · Jan 22, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant /forum/post/12898527

I think this sentence is garbled; I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying here. What "LFE" issues are you talking about? And how can it be the studio's problem? If the problem is on the disc, then it's going to show up no matter where the decoding is done. If the problem is that the source device isn't decoding properly---then you need a new source device. But the same argument could be made for a processor, too.

Have you given thought to the Integra 9.8? I know it's not in the same price range but price and quality are not perfectly correlated!

most players decoding the new formats internally and passing it via HDMI as xPCM to the processor seem to be suffering from a -10dB drop on the LFE channel. Similar issues have been found on most players with analog outputs as well, where the LFE channel was somehow underwhelmed. Seems that after much research, it has been found that most studios purposely took the -10dB level drop expecting the processor to compensate for it, but so far, most processors have not implemented such feature.

there are tons of threads about this on the Blu-ray subforum.

as for the integra 9.8/Onkyo 885, yes, they are in consideration as well. I've been following their threads dialy and seem to be a real winner for the price. My concern with them is that several AVR owners that had the 9.8 have actually returned them due to the perceived better music performance on the AVRs (like the Denon 3808 and 5803)...obviously there are many others that have experienced quite the opposite, but again, it certainly is not a great sign. Additionally, I am hoping to get a chance to hear one in person, but if the 905 is any indication (which I've tried), the SQ is nowhere near the proceed I have.

But yes, it still is in the list of contenders for now.

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xtrmspl

· #8 · Jan 22, 2008

Even though the SSP-800 won't decode tru-hd and dts-ma at launch units may later on. The built in scaler is nice, I like the gennum in my avm-50; makes sd and broadcast hd look better. I would still stick with the classe though. The best system I heard was Classe cp-500 preamp cdp-300 player, ca-2200 amp on B&W signature diamond speakers.

Michael Grant

· #9 · Jan 22, 2008

Quote:
most players decoding the new formats internally and passing it via HDMI as xPCM to the processor seem to be suffering from a -10dB drop on the LFE channel.

That's truly weird---thanks for the info.

thebland

· #10 · Jan 22, 2008

I see lack of video processing as a plus... If they added their own, it would likely be sub standard.

Bitstreaming audio to the pre/pro is certainly preferred in my opinion. It is simpler for the player to send and the pre/pro to decode.

Michael Grant

· #11 · Jan 22, 2008

And the next time some marketing genius decides the world needs another audio codec... it's suddenly not simpler anymore.

ssabripo

Discussion Starter · #12 · Jan 22, 2008

what do you guys think of the audio quality between the two? I obviously think the Classe will be superior, but how much?

rider

· #13 · Jan 23, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by ssabripo /forum/post/12899677

what do you guys think of the audio quality between the two? I obviously think the Classe will be superior, but how much?

Denon is very feature rich, but comes up very short when it comes to SQ (IMHO).

If you're looking to explore other alternatives and audio is very important: the Krell S-1000 pre/pro will have an HDMI 1.3 upgrade available in March, so it will do TrueHD & MA. $8K w/HDMI upgrade. A 1080p scalar option will also be available; don't know cost on that.

joeycalda

· #14 · Jan 23, 2008

Quote:
Been waiting for something to replace my trusty and beloved Proceed AVP2+6. I thought about the Halcro SSP-100 + upgrade, but once I tried it on my home, the proceed was still better in 2-channel.

Boy that says something about the AVP2 (I know I had one). They actually use a different Dac for the center channel. But how about the Halcro for movies? From the reading here, it does a great job for movies and that is what it's designed for. I do think however that a SSP's 2 channel sound is reflective of what's being reproduced in 5 or 7 channels.

Quote:
what do you guys think of the audio quality between the two? I obviously think the Classe will be superior, but how much?

Without hearing both one would have a hard time guessing. I would suspect the Classe to be smoother and fuller sounding, than the current 600 which sounded very good IMO. The Halcro SSP is one unit I have never heard so I can't comment on that. That's why I bought the #40. It's one less piece of equipment that I have to worry about replacing I'm not concerned on what's coming around the corner.

Now, if I can just find a projector to do the same I'll be laughing.

Joey

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Mozvz

· #15 · Jan 23, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeycalda /forum/post/12901529

Boy that says something about the AVP2 (I know I had one). They actually use a different Dac for the center channel. But how about the Halcro for movies? From the reading here, it does a great job for movies and that is what it's designed for. I do think however that a SSP's 2 channel sound is reflective of what's being reproduced in 5 or 7 channels.

Joey

Joey,

I once posed a question to Harmon about the DAC's in the AVP2 + 6 that I owned and this is what Harmon gave me as an answer:

Quote:
Please refer to the Call # below in the subject field of any future

correspondence on this subject.

----------------------------------------------------

harman specialty group Customer Service CALL # 272840

8/9/2007 1:54:00 PM APRESCOT AVP DAC question

Hello, Charles;

The AVP2 has 8 identical DACS that process information at 192Khz. The

original AVP had 8 identical DACS that processed information at 96Khz.

Best Regards

HSG Technical Services

Mark Levinson/Proceed

On a personal level, I have no idea if this is correct, but this is the information they provided.

Charles

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CINERAMAX

· #16 · Jan 23, 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Grant /forum/post/12897975

I don't have any experience with either of these pieces but let me say this:This need not be a problem if your source device can do the decoding instead. Many Blu-Ray players can decode these codecs for you. There is no sound quality benefit to doing it in the processor.

And of course, depending upon your display, you may not need a video processor.

So if you like the Classe, I personally don't think the two cited reasons should stop you from getting it.

The tact tcs NOT ONLY DECODES but puts it out in 4 spdif/aes ebu. Certainly there is an advantage to that.

CINERAMAX

· #17 · Jan 23, 2008

I listened attentively to the Denon, and while a competent piece, and with excellent snell speakers, it's audio grade is not much different from the Integra and Onkyo flagships.

In contrast the Lyngdorf system really was an order of magnitude cleaner. I assume the tact in surround mode does too.

vancouver

· #18 · Jan 23, 2008

Here is a very interesting post I read on the SSP 800 and the lack of on-board SSP decoding of TrueHD and DTS-HD. Made a lot of sense and following his posts I can tell you he has a lot of experience with classe.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpos...2&postcount=89

Quote:
Originally Posted by RebelMan /forum/post/0

you really shouldn't look at the potential loss of an on-board SSP decoder for Dolby TrueHD and dts-HD MA as a deal breaker, that would be short sighted.

In a perfect world the player would do all of the necessary mixing of audio streams and decoding and the SSP/AVR would do all of the necessary post processing, bass management and spatial computations. Unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world. The marketing juggernaut that is the Internet has seen fit to alter our perceptions of what the perfect world is by convincing us to believe that on-board SSP decoding leads to the promise land.

The reality is on-board SSP decoding is not what the studios see as the promise land but rather as the land of misplaced opportunity. According to Classe', the studios that they recently approached have no intention of allowing the audio streams to be decoded anywhere but the player. According to the studios, it is impractical to feed an outboard decoder the numerous data streams that must be mixed. Furthermore, when Classe' approached the studios about the matter they were strangely looked at because the studio's couldn't understand why it was thought that the decoding should take place anywhere else but in the player!

Infrastructure support between the player and the SSP will be insufficient to support the advanced codecs if the studios won't correctly allow the transfer of the RAW bit-streams; rendering this entire discussion a moot point. So unless the software allows it, on-board SSP decoding would go unrealized. Why incur the extra expense in an SSP for a feature that may never be utilized? I'll tell you... marketability and influence. The reality is people are persuaded by features whether they need them or not and Classe' wants to sell SSPs.

Anyone remember HDCD? Has the lack of software support deterred your non-HDCD CD spending habits? I don't think so. Likewise, the lack of software supporting the RAW bit streams enabling HD audio support for outboard decoders won't deter your HD media spending habits either. Trust me!

If anyone is wondering what sort of impact these intentions the studios have will have on Classe's decision to release an advanced decoder upgrade the short answer is it will probably matter very little. Ironic? Not really. It will remove any potential need for Classe' to explain away why it wasn't necessary in the first place. As I said people have a preference for features even if they will never use them. Marketability and influence can be equally powerful as a friend or a foe. Classe' may be smarter to have that on its side rather than to side against it for the proper reasons.

But if Classe' doesn't offer the upgrade you might be wondering what this means to the players that don't include the necessary advanced decoders required to work in full tandem with an SSP-800? My answer would be that it means to avoid them and choose another player that does or will, ( a.k.a. PS3

). The Blu-ray audio specification doesn't require that the advanced audio codecs be used at all, and all HD-DVD players are required to provide the advanced Dolby decoders anyway! Furthermore, most people looking for an HD player are primarily interested in HD video not HD audio and they may prefer not to spend the extra money for what they don't think they need in a player and will choose those accordingly. Need proof? Consider the plethora of 128kbps lossy compressed iTunes music files and mp3 downloads and there you'll have it!

For people that do want HD audio, generally enthusiasts with an insatiable need to pursue the grail of high-performance audio, they will most likely be willing to spend the extra money to get that last bit of performance from a player that offers advanced decoding as a service. However, the reality is you don't need HD audio to fully enjoy HD video, this is something the masses already know that the rest tend to forget or neglect ( Lossy vs new lossless/PCM formats. ). That's why both types of players exist (some with and some without the advanced decoders) and why they will continue in this fashion for a while. Need more proof? Recall what happened to SACD and DVD-A players and there you'll have it!

noah katz

· #19 · Jan 23, 2008

"the studio’s couldn’t understand why it was thought that the decoding should take place anywhere else but in the player!"

Too bad the player mfgr's don't feel the same way; AFAIK there isn't a single player that decodes both TrueHD and DTS-MA, and very few that do the latter.

Maybe they just want to milk all they can out of early adopters willing to fork out for the next incremental improvement, though that would be shortsighted and contributing to the stillborn HD disk market.

Perhaps it's just because the decoding chip pipeline has yet to be filled, like what happened with HDMI 1.3 chips.

rider

· #20 · Jan 23, 2008

"According to Classe', the studios that they recently approached have no intention of allowing the audio streams to be decoded anywhere but the player."

"... if the studios won't correctly allow the transfer of the RAW bit-streams"

He didn't specify which studios Classe "recently approached," but does anyone know how valid this is? In essence he seems to be contending that the studios won't allow TrueHD or DTS-MA to be output via native bitstream from the player for decoding by the pre/pro. Is this currently the case with most/some/any Blu-Ray discs?

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