[darinp2]

Sorry if this is a repeat (I searched and didn't see anything) and this may belong in the >$20k forum, but I'm wondering if anybody has any information about this DLP:

http://www.zeiss.de/c12567b00038cd75...257480005213b4

Quote:
powerdome®VELVET from Carl Zeiss is the world's first and only video projection system with an absolutely black backdrop based on the DLP® technology of Texas Instruments. A Carl Zeiss in-house design, VELVET fascinates not only by its measured contrast ratio of 2,500,000 : 1 - a tremendous leap compared to other projectors offering up to 30,000 :1 -, but also by its expanded color spectrum thanks to the latest BrilliantColor technology of Texas Instruments. In the projected image, very bright and extremely dark areas are excellently resolved at the same time.

...

The leap in contrast to more than a million to one has been made possible by an innovative optical design that excludes stray light and, thus, a gray background from the start.

...

The new projectors will become available at the beginning of 2009.

I'm wondering whether they are doing something that allows the black to be extremely dark even with some pinpoints for stars being very bright, or whether they are doing something that dims the whole screen and so lowers the maximum white point as it lowers the absolute black level. I think a local dimming system could work well for their application if it had enough zones (wouldn't need 1:1 pixel mapping), but I have no idea what they are doing. Given that they talk about edge blending it would seem that they need to do something beyond just pulling the native CR range for the whole image down to really do this right.


I also wonder if we'll see whatever they are doing in home theater models.


--Darin

 

[Aero]

Thanks for posting this,


I have no idea how Zeiss made it, but i do believe in a native cr without any local dimming features. The reason for this is becuase,in late 2007, a well known projector company demonstrated the effect of using a enhanced DLP design using two TIR prism "infront" of the dmd. By doing that, the DMD flat state (or what in the article is refeering to scattered light could be pretty much eliminated to enter the lens).


Yes, this works for both singel and 3chip DLP (and a added bonus for singel chip would be to integrate a second light path (carry the rejected light at the CW) connecting to the two prisms and thus avoid throwing away 2/3 of the light when projecting white and also increase the secondary color energy)


However, this is only true for very small/narrow light paths ..basically adding more bulbs into the DLP archticture (we have heard about duARCH and similar concept) you are also increasing the entendue and hence needs to deal with the increased scattered light that follows in the DMD flat state.


I do fully believe that Zeiss could have designed the light source in such a way that they avoid any entendue increase(one could assume the ANSI lumens is somewhat high in that projector) and then carefully applied the two TIR PRISM with a special designed lens.


who knows, i dont think Zeiss will tell...hehe...

 

[AudioBear]

and there is no mention of cost......


not cheap I would suspect.....

 

[donaldk]



Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioBear /forum/post/14289796


and there is no mention of cost......


not cheap I would suspect.....

Definitely belongs in the 20K plus forum

. Probably in the in the 200K plus forum, perhaps even in the 2000K+ forum, as these machines will most likely not become available as a single unit, but only as a complete set-up, and Carl Zeiss is one of the highest end planetarium builders around.


Compare it to the pricing indications given at Infocomm by E&S, for its first and upcomming second generation laser based planetarium projectors.


Zeiss intricate laser starprojectors have in the past cost one or even several million a piece.


Hadn't heard of these machines before, last time I checked the Carl Zeiss website was a few months ago. It all depends on the scale of the machines, one or two per dome or many, and the light/optics involved.


Edit: just read the stuff at the linked site, and it mentions that other applications are also possible, and it relies on a multichannel (i.e. multiple projectors) set-up to light up the dome, so it will be available seperately, and not be enormous (and enormously expensive), still expect it to be very likely these units would fit in the 200K+ list forum.

 

[donaldk]

The English language release doesn't provide much more info: http://www.zeiss.com/C1256A770030BCE...A?OpenDocument .

 

[darinp2]



Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk /forum/post/14290770


The English language release doesn't provide much more info: http://www.zeiss.com/C1256A770030BCE...A?OpenDocument .

From that link it looks like it goes way beyond what a dynamic iris for the whole screen could do and is more like I was hoping:

Quote:
In Chicago, planetarium directors from all over the world expressed their enthusiasm about the image quality: the blackness of the background makes white text appear like fluorescent writing, and objects seem to float in the room. Furthermore, the BrilliantColor™ technology from Texas Instruments, which mixes six colors instead of only three, ensures a high degree of colorfulness.

Unlike the total blackness achieved by VELVET, practically all standard projectors provide a gray background. Therefore, an image frame always remains visible. For dome projection, several partial images are put together to form one large image, with the image edges having to be blended into each other. With VELVET, these edges are completely invisible for the first time.

The 2nd paragraph describes the problem I think they would have if they were doing full screen dimming to get the 2.5 million:1. They might be using it partially to get that high, but from what I've seen of an RS2 that was probably at least 13k:1, it didn't have nearly enough to get black backgrounds with at least small or medium sized white text or to have the edge blending problem from raised absolute black levels go away. Might be enough with a full screen of white text on black if the ANSI CR was high enough, but if this link is right then it seems like a big step forward. Even if it won't be coming to home theater in the short run I still like to see manufacturers achieving things like this.


--Darin

 

[Ohlson]

1 In the past Zeiss used LDT from Jenoptik. That is laser display technology. That includes a very expensive laser generator that also modulutes the laser acoustically and then blends the r+g+b channels into a fibre. This light is then 2D scanned by a polygonal scanner and a galvanic mirror. This technology has high bit depth and contrast but is limited in resolution. It tops out at HD for a single channel.

Resolution limited


2 E&S GLV ESLP2 projector has enormous resolution and good bit depth. Sony has taken GLV to 30000:1 but I doubt E&S is there with ESLP2. Sony has shown very decent contrast is possible.

Low contrast for planertarium applications


3 This new DLP thing by Zeiss will be somewhat resolution limited and that is why several channels are necessary.


4-panel lcos does 1M:1 so I am pretty sure Carl Zeiss is doing something like

4DLP. Scattered light go everywhere that is why I think it has to be actively blocked by one extra panel and sent to lighttrap number two.

 

[Art Sonneborn]

However it's done, it is exciting. Perhaps we will see trickle down.


Art

 

[Ohlson]

Art S.

Could it be tthat Wolf cinema might be using this kind of technology?

 

[donaldk]

Ohlson, I am surpirsed to see no-one picked up on this, but the key might be in the unusual configuration of the lamphousing being seperated from the projector. This is not the standard two part config of lampbalast underneath or at the back of the lamphousing/optic part.


Unless the PRs have put a misrepresentating spin on this.


"The technology of VELVET projectors has been particularly designed for use in dome theaters. The lamp housing, which is independent of the projector, permits the installation of various lamp types with various performance features. Inclined installation positions of the projector do not influence the service life of the projection lamp. For brightness adjustment of the projectors in a multichannel system, the lamp is controlled instead of the video signal, once again leading to improved image quality of the multichannel projection."


The LASER system, Adlib: http://www.zeiss.de/c12567b00038cd75...257480005213b4


The SRX system (Skyskan offers similar two projector full dome set-up, perhaps collaboration like with the DefinityTWIN?) http://www.zeiss.de/c12567b00038cd75...257480005213b4

 

[Alan Gouger]



Quote:
Originally Posted by donaldk /forum/post/14293934


The lamp housing, which is independent of the projector, permits the installation of various lamp types with various performance features.

Id love to see this become standard ( sadly it never will ). Projectors with no light source and a open aperture in back for a lamp house. Just like with 35mm film projection.

We would choose a lamphouse to fit our needs ether xenon or UHP from a LH manufacture. Over the years you would keep the same lamp house which would be a universal fit between upgrading projectors.

 

[Aero]

One question.If,4DLP, what good does a Brilliantcolor algorithm do for you ?

How do they do it in 550 mm x 550 mm x 350 mm

 

[Ohlson]

Aero

Mentioning Brilliantcolor is only TI advised spin doctoring in my opinion. Mentioning the stability of dlp which is true is also TI advised spin. I think TI will push on how stable dlp technology is compared to the competition.

I can not be sure it is 4DLP but I can not see how you with good optics can just suck out the bad photons like dust with a vacum cleaner and know which photons are good ones and let them be on their merry way.

 

[darinp2]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohlson /forum/post/14295214


Aero

Mentioning Brilliantcolor is only TI advised spin doctoring in my opinion. Mentioning the stability of dlp which is true is also TI advised spin. I think TI will push on how stable dlp technology is compared to the competition.

I can not be sure it is 4DLP but I can not see how you with good optics can just suck out the bad photons like dust with a vacum cleaner and know which photons are good ones and let them be on their merry way.

I think the part about BrilliantColor does make it more likely that this is a 2 chip/panel in series solution, not 4. But you could be right.


--Darin

 

[Ohlson]

darinp2

I was thinking 3+1 in series but you make a good point about BrilliantColor so 1+1 is probably more likely.

But BrilliantColor could be a buzzword added by the PR people when the engineer just said the projector is capable of an enlarged gamut.

 

[W.Mayer]

this is top news you cant found anywhere at the moment.


i think a lot if i shoud post it here in avs because there are some

people that upset me a lot with wrong and stupid postings but

here is it.


i know some people at zeiss since long time and i get the permission to post

here at avs some details.


the system is based on at least 4 pr. for a dome better 6 pr.

reason is one pr. have only 900 lumen light out.

the use one 350 watt uhp lamp in each pr.

dmd resolution is 1920x1200.


such a system is about with all the drive and source electronics

1.2 mil. euro.


so i guess that a singel pr. is arround 150000 euro.


its a single chip design but they not tell me how to get this

2500000:1 cr. but i guess the may use a secound dmd for this.


i got a invitation to see some of the first samples next week but as my

healt sitoation is not that good i cant go.

but lets see......


please note that we talk about zeiss numbers not consumer pr.


when zeiss say 900 lumen you will found may 1000 lumen for sure.

when other consumer company say 900 lumen you may found 600 lumen

if you are lucky.


but i will tell them that for high end home cinemas we need 2000 lumen

to feed a bigger lets say 4.5 m screen.


tomorror i will have a phone call with one of the top people there to talk

about the use of this kind of technology in a high end home cinema pr.

as this is the end of talk about cr. for sure.


i can tell that zeiss already think about it!


there is a big chance for zeiss to enter this market as there is demand

for pr. that are in the bigger than 50000$ range IF the pr. is very good.


the best news is that this proves that there is a way to go to infinity cr.

with dlp and it will be just a matter of time when we will see this in

a home cinema pr.that are in the normaly price range.

but i guess it will take some years.

 

[Alan Gouger]

900 lumens is not a bad start. Much brighter then most current Home Cinema projectors but as you mention for those with larger screens more lumens are needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer /forum/post/14688054



the best news is that this proves that there is a way to go to infinity cr.

with dlp and it will be just a matter of time when we will see this in

a home cinema pr.that are in the normaly price range.

but i guess it will take some years.

Im getting old so I hope its soon

but yes knowing it is possible is the underlying importance of this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by W.Mayer /forum/post/14688054




such a system is about with all the drive and source electronics

1.2 mil. euro.


so i guess that a singel pr. is arround 150000 euro.

I wonder who in the 20k + forum will be the first

Good post. Thanks for the info, keep us posted.

 

[Ohlson]

W.Mayer

Thank you very much for the effort and the information!

Please try and confirm that they use 1+1 dmd in series configuration. While you are on the phone ask them when they will ditch the UHP and replace it with three lasers and throw away the color wheel.


Uptime is important in applications such as planetarium, simulation and command and control. A lamp and a spinning color wheel is not the optimal solution.

 

[Art Sonneborn]

Well I'd call this the UberKontrast. I'd certainly love to see it in action and ,as Wolfgang says ,if it lives up to what they've said no doubt we would have to find something other than contrast to talk about.


Art

 

[madshi]

If this is realized by 2 DMDs after each other then the native contrast ratio per DMD seems to be 1,581:1, I guess (square root of 2,500,000:1). The native contrast ratio of current DLP single chip projectors seems to be about 3,000:1, so that sounds reasonable to me.


That makes me wish for an LCOS projector with 4 panels...