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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have now discovered that the 64" Zenith HDTV IS compatible with certain progressive scan DVD players! I have revision 4.7 and had tried the Sony & JVC progressive scan DVD players with no luck (I got a line down the middle of the screen with the picture split in two). Today I bought the Toshiba 6200 progressive DVD player and it works PERFECTLY with the Zenith in progressive output!


What's also fascinating is that, contrary to what you may have read on some other websites, the benefit of progressive scan on the Zenith is CLEAR AND IMMEDIATE. Interlacing artifacts are virtually gone in the progressive mode. I was lead to believe that since the Zenith upconverts everything to 1080i, you would derive no benefits from a progressive player. FALSE!! The Toshiba allows you to instantly switch between progressive and interlace output, and the effect is so obvious that my wife (who usually could care less about things like this) said "wow". Now to put this in proper perspective, you will not see this improvement with all discs or on a very frequent basis. This is due to the fact that interlace artifacts are not that frequent or often not that objectionable. However, pull out a disc where they are (Titanic e.g.) and the improvement is startling.


Those of you with the Zenith and at least the 4.7 upgrade, check out the Toshiba, you will be pleasantly surprised!! In my mind this was the ONLY drawback to the Zenith, and now that has been removed!
 

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Make sure you have 2.0 firmware. I had problems playing certain DVD's and had to leave it in the shop for 3 months so they could write the firmware.


--Rick
 

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Interesting, Ken, because the split screen is what I had initially with my 6200 and Philips 64-in. RPTV last summer. But that was feeding the 6200's output into the Philips DVD inputs. This, on my set, is feeding the 6200's Genesis-chip deinterlaced (doubled) output into another Genesis chip, which gave me the doubled split-screen image.


When I finally got some boards replaced that fixed my component input, the 6200's progressive output into the Philips progressive component inputs gave me the enhancements you've described. It wasn't clear from your initial post what input you're using for the 6200 on the Zenith. Is the Zenith converting the 6200's 480p into 1080i, or are you using a component input that simply displays 480p? -- John


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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
kimang,

Yes, it is most definitely the progressive output of the Toshiba. It's very easy, as you know, to switch via the remote between the progressive and interlaced output. You know it's actually happening because not only are the words "progressive" and "interlaced" displayed in the upper left, but the improvement is so obvious.


Rick,

How do I tell which version of firmware it is? Whatever it is, it's the first progressive DVD player thats actually worked with the Zenith. BTW, what are some of the offending DVDs that gave you problems? It would be simple enough for me to rent a couple of those and see if I have problems.


John,

I'm using the component input on the Zenith. This input accepts both component high def as well as a normal component output signal. It's also always been my understanding that the Zenith (I think the Phillips too) upconverts everything to 1080i. This has led many "learned" writers to state that there are NO benefits to be derived from using a progressive DVD player with such a TV since everything will be converted bact to an interlaced signal. So much for theories right? You've seen exactly the improvements I've described. John, it really makes me wonder whether these guys actually test their theories BEFORE they put them in writing. Good science always teaches you to test your theories before accepting them as fact.

BTW, you mention that your 6200 gensis based output was feeding another Genesis chip. Are you saying that the Phillips TV has a Genesis chip in the component input stream? Since your board replacement, are you using the same component inputs on the Philliips that originally gave you the problem or is this a different set of inputs on the Phillips? Also, are you still using the Toshiba 6200?
 

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Ken,

Yes, if I connect the 6200 to my DVD inputs, and set the 6200 to progressive, I'm feeding one Genesis output to another's input. Split-screen doubling results. Normally, before getting my Philips repaired, I fed the 6200's interlaced component output into the Philips DVD component input. The Philips has three DVD inputs, all for interlaced DVD outputs: DVD component, S-video, video. All go through the NTSC Genesis chip. Deinterlacing by the Philips' Genesis was good, but heavily detailed scenes had obvious 'twitter' and aliasing. With the Philips separate HD component-in repaired (for progressive signals), I now only feed the 6200's component outputs (progressive mode) into the Philips HD component in. To boil it all down a bit, since the 6200's progressive output is a computer-like signal it needs a progressive input. On the Philips that's the HD component in, which can also take a computer signal, or a 1080i signal (an exception). -- John


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[This message has been edited by John Mason (edited 04-15-2001).]
 

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Ken. .

Is that the Toshiba SD6200 which has a price range

(Yahoo) of $479 plus? How's the sound?

Hummer


[This message has been edited by hummer (edited 04-14-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
hummer,

Yes, that's the one. I paid $499 at the Wiz. Sound seems very good, comparable to the Sony interlaced DVD player it's replacing. I haven't tried it on CDs (I usually don't listen to them at home), but it seems great on DVDs.
 

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I've had this player for about 3 months now. You really can tell the difference when you use the Progressive/Interlace switch on the remote. Since I've gotten an HDTV I had a hard time enjoying DVDs until the SD6200 arrived that is.


Hate the thumb wheel on the remote, I always hit it by accident.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Does anyone have any theories why most progressive DVD players cause the Zenith to generate a line down the middle with the picture split in two, YET the Toshiba has no compatibility problems at all? Is the progressive output of the Toshiba generated in some different manner that the Zenith likes and yet everyone elses progressive players do it the same way that the Zenith can't handle. It doesn't even seem a function of the decoding chip used in the players since the Sony & Tosh are supposed to use the same chip. The Sony is incompatible with the Zenith and the Tosh is fine. It seems very strange to me.
 

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Ken,

Not sure if this won't jumble things further, but in troubleshooting my 6200/HDTV combo last year (for progressive out sync loss), I took the SD-6200 back to the Wiz where I'd bought it for tests. They plugged it into a Sony HDTV's component in, which displayed normal DVD images regardless whether the 6200 remote was set for interlace or progressive output. That said two things. First, it was my Philips, not the 6200, causing my sync loss problem. Second, that Sony's component-in circuit could handle either an interlaced or progressive input. It was designed to recognize whether an input signal was progressive or not and not attempt to line-double an input that was already progressive.


As I mentioned above, my Philips has two component-in 'flavors': DVD (for interlaced only), and HD (for progressive or interlace). With my Philips, feeding a progressive component DVD output into the interlace DVD input results in a split-screen doubled image. Back then, this only worked with simple movie credits or freeze-frame images. Moving video lost sync completely. (That was a separate sync loss, apparently, from the total sync loss--due to some type of board(s) malfunction--from a DVD progressive signal fed into the HD component-in jacks.) I concluded that feeding progressive into my deinterlacing circuit, designed for 480i, is a no-no via any jack, and I've since avoided it. The HD progressive input circuits, as on most sets, are pretty much straight feed-throughs to the CRTs. BTW, the Philips doesn't convert everything to 1080i, only 720p--a conversion I haven't encountered yet. -- John


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Hey Ken, if I am correct the Component inputs don't do upconversion (I know for a fact the RGBHV input does not do any signal conversions.) That being the case what you would be seeing on your screen is true 480i or 480p from that input with no upconversion to 1080i. On my HTPC I scale the 640x480p signal from DVDs to 1920x540p and get the best picture in that mode with the least amount of artifacts. Quite crisp and sharp (well, not as sharp as 1080i, but you know what I mean.) I have no doubt a progressive DVD player to component inputs, if it is not being upconverted, should show similar results. So I'm pretty sure no conversion is going on there.





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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Lenny,

What you say makes sense and would explain the very large difference in progressive, however, if there was no upconversion with a 480i DVD signal, wouldn't you see scan lines if no line doubling were occurring?


I'm still confused as to why ALL progressive DVD players wouldn't work with this set. Of the ones I've tried (JVC, Sony & Toshiba), only the Tosh has worked.
 

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Lenny writes:
Quote:
On my HTPC I scale the 640x480p signal from DVDs to 1920x540p and get the best picture in that mode with the least amount of artifacts.
Lenny, what is the best method to get to this point? I've just finished building my HTPC, but I'm not sure about how to get the best picture out of it. I noticed that the convergence seems quite a bit off when trying one of the 960x540 predefined modes of PowerStrip 3. But the convergence is fine in 640x480. Did you create an .inf file for your IQB64W10W?

My Zenith's screen is set at a 5% overscan. My HTPC is using an unmodified GeForce2 GTS 32MB card and Toshiba 1402. I have PowerDVD 3.0, PS3, YXY and using WIN98SE.

I'm wondering where to start to get things correctly set up. (it would be nice to be able to find the Taskbar on the screen http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/frown.gif )

I did manage to watch Super Speedway and the improvement was immediately obvious.


Thanks in advance for your help, (or anyone elses too).


Rick - (In the process of destroying WAF by playing Quake on the big screen.)
 

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Ken: I don't use my component inputs, but I can say that through the RGBHV input I can see the scan lines on a 540p signal, but they are not as noticeable as I thought they would be on a screen that size. I'm not sure if it is just the capabilities of a 9" CRT to keep the scan lines tighter or if there really is some kind of processing, perhaps other than upconversion, occurring.


waja: Define convergence problems. The only problems I had with the HDTV standard 960x540p setting out of PS3 was that it was too far to the left. You can use PS3's advanced screen to move it over to the right and if it doesn't go far enough for you then try squeezing the sides just once and moving it over some more. If you squeeze it more than once you'll set the timings too far off standard and your screen will just blank out (which is actually a good thing as it prevents a bad timing from overdriving and harming the set).


The HDTV Derived 960x540p is much more centered and a tad smaller so you can see it all, but I've pushed my overscan down to around 2% (I have some geometric distortion that is almost impossible to clear out and it has taken me endless hours getting it down to that, so it may not be something you want to try) and as such the derived timing is now too small for my screen. So I've resorted back to the standard on and moved it left. I still have parts of the screen where I can't see them, but I've centered it as best as I could and then moved it up just enough to see the task bar when it is up but low enough so I won't see the line it leaves when it is "hidden".


If you have actual convergence errors, where red, green and blue lines doesn't seem to line up on top of each other, then I would think you have an actual convergence problem on the set as the timings shouldn't affect that in any way that I know of. (Which is to say there could be a way, just that I, in my admittedly limited knowledge, don't know of it.) Oh and yes I did set up and .inf file for the Zenith. Now if only I could remember what I used to do it...


BTW, the PS3 should also have a timing in it for 640x480 derived from 540p timings, which means that you don't have to keep pressing that DBS button to change the screen from RGBHV to VGA mode to see things that change your screen to 640x480 (oh so commonly done in games.)


And come to think of it, standard 640x480p timings on that VGA screen always looked terribly soft to me. Not very good at all.


Hope that helps some.



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Lenny Zimmermann

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Ken

The Toshiba 6200/Zenith 64 combination is indeed exciting news for me. I have missed progressive scan up to this point. I am interested to know if anyone else here has used this combination with success?

barney evans
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Barney,

There was some other guy who had given the Toshiba 6200 a rave review, and

mentioned he was using the Zenith 64" HDTV. I emailed him and he responded that he too had tried other progressives and found only the Toshiba worked. I'd love to know what's different about this player that allows it to work with the Zenith.
 

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....and it's a real shame that no one at zenith "hotline" knows or can even put us in touch with anyone at zenith that can tell us
 

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Guys I hate to tell you this but if you go Y Pr Pb the Zenith upcoverts this to 1080i. I know this because I just got training from them on this set due to the fact that I am an ISF tech. If the set did not do anything to the signal you would see scan lines very clearly. Now for the good stuff get a keydigital transcoder and go from component to VGA, there and only there will you get a true 480p from this set and you will see obvious scan lines also what hurts the set the most is its screen you lose a lot from it but you can replace that with one from a screen Co and then watch out the picture will jump out at ya unreal! They are not planning a software version that could make the 480p signal work as 480p it is not possible hardware dose this, it would require board changes and that aint going to happen folks. They are trying to solve the split signal and know this is due to sync problems they are close to a fix as I saw a set with the Toshiba 9200 working good (still 1080i tho) with no split. Well that's all for now guys Anthony...................
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Asab,

Any idea why the Tosh 6200 works with revision 4.7 and not others? I and another guy from another site have both had success with this unit and no other. Also, it this is being upconverted to 1080i, why are the improvements in interlaced artifacts so dramatic?
 
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