Patterns to measure MLL as a function of APL - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 8Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 97 Old 06-13-2012, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 4,615
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 189 Post(s)
Liked: 340
I got this idea from the patterns described in the display metrology document from this thread. They can be used to measure your display minimum luminance level (MLL) and see how it varies with the average picture level (APL). Full field black and ANSI patterns may not capture the idiosyncrasies of your display that can affect contrast ratio when viewing real content. There are 13 levels on the disk which contain a central 10% area black window surrounded by a random star field pattern. The star field pattern contains at least 10% of the pixels distributed between levels 16-235 so that all video levels will be stimulated at each pattern level even lthough the average will vary as given below:

1 0%
2 4.8%
3 9.3%
4 13.7%
5 20.4%
6 24.8%
7 29.3%
8 33.7%
9 38.1%
10 51.3%
11 61.6%
12 72.8%
13 87.5%

An example pattern

338

Using these patterns to measure MLL vs. APL on my display, all measurements using a D3:

324

You will notice that at 10% average stimulus the D8000 MLL rises more than a factor of 2 and then tapers down slowly. The ANSI measurement is also shown and it has not budged from the full black level. So if all you did was measure full black contrast and ANSI contrast on this display you would overestimate it's contrast performance when displaying real video content. It would be interesting to see other panels measured in this way.


updated 06/14
-added asymmetric patches for local dimming tests
-added 3x3, 4x4, 5x5, 6x6, 12x12 ANSI patterns
-added Dynamic contrast test (25% fixed on variable background)
-added mp4 version (if anyone wants a blue ray disk image let me know)

updated 06/18
-added ABL loading patterns, peak white on variable background up to 97% average stimulus
-reduced disk size, patterns run for 10 seconds each

The patterns in AVCHD/DVD(1.2GB) format can be downloaded here.

-----

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
zoyd is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 97 Old 06-13-2012, 05:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
TomHuffman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Springfield, MO
Posts: 6,419
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked: 217
I am afraid that this is a Samsung-only phenomenon that you have measured. I tried this with the Pioneer and the MLL stayed below the measurable threshold throughout the entire range. Then I tried with a Panasonic ST30. The luminance stayed almost exactly the same at all levels, including the checkerboard.

APL.................x....................y....................Y
Black...............0.281.............0.272.............0.0236
Level1.............0.290.............0.271.............0.0242
Level2.............0.289.............0.272.............0.0243
Level3.............0.289.............0.273.............0.0243
Level4.............0.290.............0.271.............0.0241
Level5.............0.290.............0.272.............0.0241
Level6.............0.291.............0.272.............0.0241
Level7.............0.290.............0.273.............0.0241
Level8.............0.289.............0.272.............0.0239
Level9.............0.290.............0.274.............0.0239
Level10...........0.291.............0.274.............0.0238
Level11...........0.289.............0.273.............0.0236
Level12...........0.292.............0.273.............0.0236
Chckrbrd.........0.287.............0.273.............0.0244

Tom Huffman
ChromaPure Software/AccuPel Video Signal Generators
ISF/THX Calibrations
Springfield, MO

TomHuffman is offline  
post #3 of 97 Old 06-13-2012, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 4,615
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 189 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Tom, thanks for trying it out. I expect the Panasonics from this and last year are ok, as well as the E-series. Anyone with a good meter want to try it on a Sharp Elite?

-----

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
zoyd is online now  
post #4 of 97 Old 06-13-2012, 08:55 PM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,950
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 219
Next time I deal with one of them, I'll provide you with the results.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Tom, thanks for trying it out. I expect the Panasonics from this and last year are ok, as well as the E-series. Anyone with a good meter want to try it on a Sharp Elite?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

D-Nice is offline  
post #5 of 97 Old 06-13-2012, 11:06 PM
Advanced Member
 
AnotherDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 683
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Elite 70X5 Local Dimming On

Meter: X-Rite i1 Display Pro Retail (not super sensitive ... see those 0s)
ISF Mode
Calibrated Gamma = 2.3

Backlight = 30
Contrast = 79
Brightness = 1
Gamma = -4

APL....................x....................y....................Y
Black...............0.000.............0.000.............0.0000
Level1.............0.000.............0.000.............0.0000
Level2.............0.000.............0.000.............0.0000
Level3.............0.000.............0.000.............0.0000
Level4.............0.000.............0.000.............0.0000
Level5.............0.000.............0.000.............0.0000
Level6.............0.000.............0.000.............0.0000
Level7.............0.000.............0.000.............0.0000
Level8.............0.000.............0.000.............0.0000
Level9.............0.174.............0.0075............0.0001
Level10...........0.174.............0.0075............0.0001
Level11...........0.341.............0.088.............0.0022
Level12...........0.292.............0.273.............0.0045

Using the 16-block 4x4 (8 white/8 black) in the AVSHD Disc ChromaPure ANSI Contrast pattern:

1-2-3-4
5-6-7-8
9-10-11-12
13-14-15-16

Chckrbrd 9........0.231.............0.188.............0.0075
Chckrbrd 11......0.234.............0.189.............0.0072
Chckrbrd 16......0.239.............0.192.............0.0063


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
AnotherDude is offline  
post #6 of 97 Old 06-14-2012, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 4,615
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 189 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Next time I deal with one of them, I'll provide you with the results.

Thanks! I am thinking of adding another black patch area that will be more of a torture test for local dimming sets, the 10% central box is probably fairly easy for them to handle. Do you have any recommendations on shape or orientation? I've heard the Elite has 200 local dimming zones (don't know if that's true) but if distributed in equal area boxes that's roughly 100x100 pixels for each zone. I was thinking of a circular patch with radius of 100 pixels to ensure that it would cut across zones and be big enough for a contact meter. I think I will also add the ANSI patterns, any other suggestions?


@AnotherDude

Thanks, I'm assuming your measurements are ftL, correct? You are seeing the effects of patch size/orientation with respect to dimming zone.

-----

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
zoyd is online now  
post #7 of 97 Old 06-14-2012, 06:38 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
D-Nice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 14,950
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked: 219
It could be circular, octagon, diamond or triangular... basically anything that does not adhere to the zone structure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Thanks! I am thinking of adding another black patch area that will be more of a torture test for local dimming sets, the 10% central box is probably fairly easy for them to handle. Do you have any recommendations on shape or orientation? I've heard the Elite has 200 local dimming zones (don't know if that's true) but if distributed in equal area boxes that's roughly 100x100 pixels for each zone. I was thinking of a circular patch with radius of 100 pixels to ensure that it would cut across zones and be big enough for a contact meter. I think I will also add the ANSI patterns, any other suggestions?
@AnotherDude
Thanks, I'm assuming your measurements are ftL, correct? You are seeing the effects of patch size/orientation with respect to dimming zone.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

D-Nice is offline  
post #8 of 97 Old 07-11-2012, 11:00 PM
Advanced Member
 
AnotherDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 683
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Sorry, I almost forgot about this thread! Just subscribed to it, in case.

Yes, ftL measurements. I'm guessing torturing LCD/LEDs is a hobby for plasma owners biggrin.gif. I look forward to the circular patches. For me it's the end result I really care, though measurements are good for seeing relative changes for my purposes.

When you said I'm seeing the effects of patch size/orientation with respect to dimming zone, what exactly were you refering to? Right now my biggest problem with this exercise is my meter is not all that sensitive frown.gif


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
AnotherDude is offline  
post #9 of 97 Old 07-12-2012, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 4,615
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 189 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherDude View Post

When you said I'm seeing the effects of patch size/orientation with respect to dimming zone, what exactly were you refering to? Right now my biggest problem with this exercise is my meter is not all that sensitive frown.gif

The difference between your checkerboard measurements and level 12 of my disk are probably due to the size/orientation of the measured black area. The current version adds a triangle with rectangular base, those should measure higher than rectangular center areas. I haven't gotten around to circles yet.

-----

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
zoyd is online now  
post #10 of 97 Old 07-12-2012, 05:15 PM
Advanced Member
 
AnotherDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: NYC
Posts: 683
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 29
Gotcha.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
AnotherDude is offline  
post #11 of 97 Old 04-21-2013, 06:25 AM
Senior Member
 
Make73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Finland
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Samsung PS64E8000 FW 2006
i1 Display Pro

% / Y cd/m2
0% = 0.017
4.8% = 0.017
9.3% = 0.019
13.7% = 0.038
20.4% = 0.044
24.8% = 0.051
29.3% = 0.055
33.7% = 0.059
38.1% = 0.063
51.3% = 0.086
61.6% = 0.088
72.8% = 0.087
87.5% = 0.086

% / Y
2.5% = 4.740
7.3% = 4.734
11.8% = 4.624
16.2% = 4.518
22.9% = 4.478
27.3% = 4.460
31.7% = 4.466
36.2% = 4.294
40.6% = 3.809
53.8% = 2.708
64.1% = 2.322
75.3% = 2.008
90% = 1.634


ANSI 3x3 B=0.019 W=65.206 (measured from center of screen)
ANSI 5x5 B=0.023 W=71.208 (measured from center of screen)
ANSI 4x4:
0.019 71.148 0.020 70.9
66.1 0.027 72.7 0.021
0.021 72.9 0.023 68.3
69.9 0.020 72.5 0.020


Anyone knows why Samsung give so high MLL readings with higher APL patterns?
And why I get such a normal readings with 4x4 ANSI pattern where APL is 50%, or is it?

Samsung PS64E8005 200h Movie calibrated.zip 45k .zip file
Attached Files
File Type: zip Samsung PS64E8005 200h Movie calibrated.zip (44.6 KB, 19 views)
Make73 is offline  
post #12 of 97 Old 04-21-2013, 06:47 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 4,615
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 189 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Thanks for the data, here is the mll plotted.



Compare that to the D series in the first post and it shows the same transition at 10% APL but does not level off like the D series. It would be very interesting to see the same measurements on the F-series with the black optimizer in it's three settings, off, dark room and bright room.

Regarding why you don't see the rise with an ANSI pattern, I can't answer that other than to say that has been the observed behavior in these plasmas and why you shouldn't trust the ANSI reading for a static contrast number.
Make73 likes this.

-----

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
zoyd is online now  
post #13 of 97 Old 04-21-2013, 07:14 AM
Senior Member
 
Make73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Finland
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Thanks for the diagram.

btw, sure there´s what you measure with meter but it´s different what you see by eyes wink.gif

A & B are same levels
Make73 is offline  
post #14 of 97 Old 06-02-2013, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 4,615
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 189 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Here is a follow up to the post I wrote in the F8500 settings thread showing the static contrast performance of 3 panels, one each in the D, E, and F series using the mll vs. apl patterns, along with the Panasonic VT50 and ST30. Of the Samsungs, the F series is of course significantly better at low APL scenes (a factor of 3 vs. the D8000 and a factor of 2 vs. the E8000 at 2% average luminance). It's surprising however that my tweaked panel outperforms the F8500 (3000 vs. 2500) above 7% average luminance @42ftL. ABL brings it back down to match around 42% average luminance. I should note too that the F series is capable of much higher than 42 ftL peak white where this comparison is made. The panasonics do not modify black level with APL and will therefore maintain a constant contrast ratio until peak white is affected by the brightness limiter, typically above about 30% average luminance.



For some context on average luminance levels here is an example of low vs. typical APL.

Typical - Average luminance is 15.1% on 2.2 gamma display



Low - Average luminance is 3.5% on 2.2 gamma display



Low - Average luminance is 4.2% on 2.2 gamma display



Summary of mll for low and typical luminance ranges:



and contrast ratio:



There are limitations to the perceivable benefits of high native contrast ratios, one of which is environmental lighting. Even in a dimly lit room say with several lux falling on the screen and a good AR coating, the reflected light will be at or above 0.01 ftL So to benefit from a display with mll significantly lower than this the first thing you have to do is turn off all the room lights.

The second limitation is the dynamic range of the eye's sensitivity. At any particular adaptation luminance the highest perceivable contrast ratio is ~1000:1 (some would put this lower, maybe 500:1) So if we take our typical average luminance level for a gamma = 2.2 display calibrated to 35 ftL and divide by the maximum perceivable contrast ratio at that adapted average luminance we get (15%) * (35 ftL) / 1000 = 0.005 ftL (ANSI CR = 7000) . So again, once you get into the mll range of 0.005 - 0.01 ftL you need specific conditions to occur in which you will benefit from an mll lower than this. One is minimal room light and the other is for scenes that are 2 or 3 times below typical average luminance levels.

note: Thanks to buzz, Make73, and Tom H for providing the data
JimP, Chad B, orion2001 and 3 others like this.

-----

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
zoyd is online now  
post #15 of 97 Old 06-02-2013, 08:31 PM
Senior Member
 
Make73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Finland
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 21
I did re-calibration/check at 560 hours of usage with FW 2008.2 and also remeasured with Your disc (three measures with both CS ON and OFF)
(If set cell light and contrast to max 20/100 I can reach 152cd/m2 max luminance without crushing white and seems that affect just a liitle bit to calibration, dE´s still under 3)
Samsung PS64E8005 560h 120cdm2 Movie calibrated Masciors Disc Pana matrix.zip 5k .zip file

Cinema Smooth ON
% / Y cd/m2
0% = 0.018 - 0.019
4.8% = 0.018 - 0.019
9.3% = 0.018 - 0.019
13.7% = 0.034 - 0.036
20.4% = 0.046 - 0.047
24.8% = 0.053 - 0.055
29.3% = 0.059 - 0.060
33.7% = 0.062 - 0.064
38.1% = 0.067 - 0.068
51.3% = 0.084 - 0.087
61.6% = 0.085 - 0.087
72.8% = 0.084 - 0.087
87.5% = 0.084 - 0.086

Cinema Smooth OFF
% / Y cd/m2
0% = 0.017 - 0.018
4.8% = 0.017 - 0.018
9.3% = 0.017 - 0.018
13.7% = 0.032 - 0.034
20.4% = 0.050 - 0.051
24.8% = 0.057 - 0.059
29.3% = 0.062 - 0.064
33.7% = 0.066 - 0.067
38.1% = 0.070 - 0.071
51.3% = 0.090 - 0.091
61.6% = 0.092 - 0.093
72.8% = 0.092 - 0.093
87.5% = 0.092 - 0.093

zoyd, any reports that your trim tweak also works with E-series?
Is there anykind of downside with trimming voltages and timings?
However I´m not sure if I dare to do that smile.gif
Make73 is offline  
post #16 of 97 Old 06-03-2013, 01:02 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 4,615
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 189 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Make73 View Post

zoyd, any reports that your trim tweak also works with E-series?
Is there anykind of downside with trimming voltages and timings?
However I´m not sure if I dare to do that smile.gif

No reports but the controls are available on the 51" models. wink.gif


your repeat measurements are nice and stable, and CS on does not raise the mll.

-----

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
zoyd is online now  
post #17 of 97 Old 09-05-2013, 09:49 PM
Senior Member
 
todd95008's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 224
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
I was not aware of this thread but it has some great info...

I was testing MLL last night and found this behavior with a Samsung 51" F8500.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1475066/official-samsung-pnxxf8500-owners-thread-no-street-price-talk/1530#post_23704586

Zoyd, you mention some tweaks you did to a D8000 Samsung, are those tweak documented somewhere on AVS Forum ??
How much of change did they make ?

Thanks

Todd

F8500 floating blacks
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
todd95008 is offline  
post #18 of 97 Old 09-06-2013, 09:35 AM
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Liked: 198
that floating black level on the Samsung F8500 plasma is pretty shocking (0.02 fL and CR ratio under 2K:1)

I can't believe the guys at the HDTV Shootout overlooked something like that.

Does the Panasonic ST60/VT60/ZT60 have a similar issue?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #19 of 97 Old 09-06-2013, 10:31 AM
AVS Special Member
 
HDTVChallenged's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 134
A bit off topic but,

Does anyone know the average "contrast ratio" a/o MLLs in a typical commercial movie theater? Bonus points for Film projection vs DLP. ... For reference purposes only.
HDTVChallenged is offline  
post #20 of 97 Old 09-06-2013, 10:45 AM
Senior Member
 
todd95008's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 224
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

that floating black level on the Samsung F8500 plasma is pretty shocking (0.02 fL and CR ratio under 2K:1)

I can't believe the guys at the HDTV Shootout overlooked something like that.

Does the Panasonic ST60/VT60/ZT60 have a similar issue?

Before I sold it, my 50ST60 had a constant black level of .003fL (or lower since this is the limit of my meter) no matter what APL was.
You can see above on Zoyd's plot (post 14) that the older Panasonic panels were like this too.
My F8500 is a 51 inch panel and I don't think they are as good as the larger versions (could be the physics of the smaller pixels on the 51" size) ??
Off topic but the worst part is with the smart apps and streaming content which for some reason shuts off the black optimizer.

F8500 floating blacks
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
todd95008 is offline  
post #21 of 97 Old 09-06-2013, 12:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Liked: 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

Here is a follow up to the post I wrote in the F8500 settings thread showing the static contrast performance of 3 panels, one each in the D, E, and F series using the mll vs. apl patterns, along with the Panasonic VT50 and ST30. Of the Samsungs, the F series is of course significantly better at low APL scenes (a factor of 3 vs. the D8000 and a factor of 2 vs. the E8000 at 2% average luminance). It's surprising however that my tweaked panel outperforms the F8500 (3000 vs. 2500) above 7% average luminance @42ftL. ABL brings it back down to match around 42% average luminance. I should note too that the F series is capable of much higher than 42 ftL peak white where this comparison is made. The panasonics do not modify black level with APL and will therefore maintain a constant contrast ratio until peak white is affected by the brightness limiter, typically above about 30% average luminance.



Summary of mll for low and typical luminance ranges:



and contrast ratio:




note: Thanks to buzz, Make73, and Tom H for providing the data

this confirms that both the E and F series Samsung Plasmas have much worse blacks levels and contrast ratios with typical APL material vs. low APL material... which means dark scenes on this sets can look truly amazing but typical APL scenes end up with performance similar to the average (VA panel) non local dimming LED/LCD

the D series doesn't seem to care whether the APL is typical or low but then again it's black level and contrast ratio performance is on par with my Samsung EH series LED-LCD


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #22 of 97 Old 09-06-2013, 12:04 PM
AVS Special Member
 
PlasmaPZ80U's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,230
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Liked: 198
Quote:
Originally Posted by todd95008 View Post

Before I sold it, my 50ST60 had a constant black level of .003fL (or lower since this is the limit of my meter) no matter what APL was.
You can see above on Zoyd's plot (post 14) that the older Panasonic panels were like this too.
My F8500 is a 51 inch panel and I don't think they are as good as the larger versions (could be the physics of the smaller pixels on the 51" size) ??
Off topic but the worst part is with the smart apps and streaming content which for some reason shuts off the black optimizer.

is your meter from the D3 family of meters?


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
PlasmaPZ80U is offline  
post #23 of 97 Old 09-06-2013, 07:57 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 4,615
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 189 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by todd95008 View Post

Zoyd, you mention some tweaks you did to a D8000 Samsung, are those tweak documented somewhere on AVS Forum ??
How much of change did they make ?

Thanks

Todd

reduced mll by about a factor of 2 http://www.avsforum.com/t/1390635/samsung-plasma-panel-tweaks-for-better-blacks

-----

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
zoyd is online now  
post #24 of 97 Old 09-06-2013, 09:03 PM
AVS Special Member
 
HDTVChallenged's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 8,403
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Liked: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

A bit off topic but,

Does anyone know the average "contrast ratio" a/o MLLs in a typical commercial movie theater? Bonus points for Film projection vs DLP. ... For reference purposes only.

Sorry to have barged in ... I *think* I've found the answers I was looking for ... Suddenly, I find myself even more convinced that worshiping at the alter of "MLL uber alles" may be counterproductive. wink.gif

Carry on ...
HDTVChallenged is offline  
post #25 of 97 Old 09-06-2013, 10:17 PM
Senior Member
 
todd95008's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 224
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

is your meter from the D3 family of meters?

No, It's Monaco Optix DTP-94
Not the best but pretty good low light readings and very consistent...

F8500 floating blacks
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
todd95008 is offline  
post #26 of 97 Old 09-07-2013, 11:10 AM
Senior Member
 
todd95008's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 224
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post

reduced mll by about a factor of 2 http://www.avsforum.com/t/1390635/samsung-plasma-panel-tweaks-for-better-blacks

Thanks
That's a great thread !!
I will probably wait until I can get service manual for the F8500 series before doing any tweaks.
So far I have not found any source but it may not be available yet.

F8500 floating blacks
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
todd95008 is offline  
post #27 of 97 Old 09-19-2014, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 4,615
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 189 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Fixed link for patterns, the first post is not editable with the new forum software.




download patterns here in AVCHD format.
orion2001 likes this.

-----

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by zoyd; 09-21-2014 at 10:48 AM.
zoyd is online now  
post #28 of 97 Old 09-19-2014, 05:34 PM
Senior Member
 
orion2001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 467
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 270 Post(s)
Liked: 156
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Fixed link for patterns, the first post is not editable with the new forum software.
download patterns here in AVCHD format.
Hi Zoyd. I'm having trouble with this link. I downloaded the 612MB zip file, extracted the ISO and mounted it. But I can't get it to player either with MPC-HC, VLC or TMT6. They all complain about the file as invalid/bad file descriptor.
orion2001 is offline  
post #29 of 97 Old 09-19-2014, 05:37 PM - Thread Starter
AVS Special Member
 
zoyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Planet Dog
Posts: 4,615
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 189 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Its avchd format, burn to DVD.

-----

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
zoyd is online now  
post #30 of 97 Old 09-19-2014, 06:01 PM
Member
 
umass66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 148
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 23
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoyd View Post
Its avchd format, burn to DVD.
Downloaded it several times and on extraction it says file is broken
umass66 is offline  
Reply Display Calibration

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off