Opinions vary but many people are using pro amps at home. And many aren't. Thre are lots of threads here. There are a myriad of design trades in pro vs. consumer amps, some good, some bad, depending on your point of view. And, of course, there are good and bad pro amps just like consumer amps. As for your trades, not all pro amps are smaller, cooler, etc. -- depends on the amp. Some of the consumer amps are quite well-designed, and some pro amps, well, less so. And vice-versa.

Many pro amps have higher distortion specs, though in reality I doubt it matters. I believe it is almost universally true that you will get more watts per dollar from a pro amp.


Of course, the posts of exceptions will now follow...

 

I used a Mackie FR 800 I think it was. I now have a Crown XLS 1000.


Zero issue with the Mackie. With the Crown, there's a louder hiss than I get from my Emotiva XPA-3. I do have the gain control maxed out, but that seemed best when using a receiver as a pre-amp.


In their defense, I am using the Crown for the rear surround speakers which are Klipsch, and may be more sensitive than my B&W speakers.


I use the Crown for my rear surround channels, I would be less pleased if I had to use it for my front channels (which I am using the XPA-3 for.)

 

Thanks for the responses.

Don, thanks for your well though out response.

Mike, so would you say the Emotiva is better than the Crown? If so in which area?

- Speaker control

- Highs

- Mids

- Bass

- S/N Ratio

- Construction

- Circuit Protection

- Other area that may be important to you?

One thing I don't like about some of the new pro amps is that they trade in a robust power supply for light weight. Some of the Peavys and even some Crowns come to mind. Others still employ a heavier duty power supply, more in line with high end audio amps. Face Audio and Veritas Sound comes to mind.What do you think about some of this aspects?

 

You have to look at the amplifier class, not just the weight. The Crown K-series is very small and light due to their Class D amplifiers and yet put out a kW into 4 ohms (or something like that). The old Threshold class A monoblocks were incredibly heavy, hot, and low in distortion due to their pure class A design.


The (pro) Crown's you could throw off a truck and they'd keep on working. They ran a little hot and sounded pretty good if a little noisy in a home system (not that you'd really notice; a little more hiss when the music wasn't playing). It was indestructible. I have had other pro amps (Crest and Behringer come to mind, but note this is a small sample and was several years ago) that were fairly light, unreliable, noisy (low SNR, high hiss, and noisy fans) and sounded like crap (can I say that here?) into a less-than-ideal speaker load. I had a big beautiful Phase Linear 700 that had incredible bass, noisy/piercing highs, and reliability of about one month between self-destructions. My Emotiva's have been working great, are quiet, and survived an accidental short (duh!) You could arc-weld with the old ML or Krell monoblocks that passed through my system (demo/review units; I couldn't afford them!)


The bottom line is you have to try them and see. However, many here have; I am surprised there aren't more folk chiming in with their positive pro amp experiences. As I said, I have seen both sides. I will say that, despite there claimed reliability, I have run a home amp in a pro reinforcement systems only a couple of times in my life, and the results were OK once and disastrous the next (the consumer amp overheated and shut down in a performance -- it was a last-minute sub for a blown amp). I tend to find pro amps at home sound OK, a little noisy (SNR and fan), and sometimes a little "grainy" compared to a good consumer amp. Not sure I could pick one out in a ABX, especially a good pro amp.

 

As I said, main difference is hiss from the speaker. The Crown has more hiss.


Note that it's power supply is lighter than a traditional (linear) power supply because it's a switching power supply. And it's a class D amp. So you can't really compare weights.

 

Try searching for this thread. "New amp is making me grin from ear to ear =)". It covers everything on pro amps mostly the Crown series.

 

Thank you all for the resposes. I understand the difference in class,(i think) and how it affects PS and weight. What I dont think is fair is that some of these newer models, say the newer crowns and/or peavys with non conventionals ps, are advertised with incredible power outputs and low weight and when put on the test bench they dont perform half as well as they should. I remember seeing a thread in a different forum where amp X was advertised with a power output of 400 watt per channel into 8 ohms from 20-20khz but it only put out 86 at 20hz. This is just one example.

Other amps, like the Face audio and the Veritas, where able to put out the rated power at all frequencies. This is not an indictment on the Crown, but just to show what can happen to an enthusiast about to part with his/her hard earned cash when there is no real world guidance/advice. We have the tools to prevent this, forums such as this one.

It seems to me that since everybody has had some sort of good experience with this one way or another then these can be posted here with empirical results. You know, as a way to take some the gambling out of buying these amps and to give forum members a good starting point.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman I used a Mackie FR 800 I think it was. I now have a Crown XLS 1000. Zero issue with the Mackie. With the Crown, there's a louder hiss than I get from my Emotiva XPA-3. I do have the gain control maxed out, but that seemed best when using a receiver as a pre-amp. In their defense, I am using the Crown for the rear surround speakers which are Klipsch, and may be more sensitive than my B&W speakers. I use the Crown for my rear surround channels, I would be less pleased if I had to use it for my front channels (which I am using the XPA-3 for.)

I recently purchased some Samson s converters and Cleanbox Pro converters last week. Before this purchase, I too was using all of my pro amps with their gain set to max. After hooking up the converters I was shocked by how weak the signal coming from my 1007 through my converter cables to my pro amps really was.


Now I have my amps set to half gain and they are MUCH louder at all levels than when I was using them at full gain without the converters just a few days earlier. The difference is astonishing. I will definitely be using signal converters from here on out.


But sadly, I still have the same buzzing and hiss issues though not as bad as before. I might try the cleanbox hum killer to take care of this problem. It's gotten favorable reviews online.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by DonH50 You have to look at the amplifier class, not just the weight. The Crown K-series is very small and light due to their Class D amplifiers and yet put out a kW into 4 ohms (or something like that). The old Threshold class A monoblocks were incredibly heavy, hot, and low in distortion due to their pure class A design. The (pro) Crown's you could throw off a truck and they'd keep on working. They ran a little hot and sounded pretty good if a little noisy in a home system (not that you'd really notice; a little more hiss when the music wasn't playing). It was indestructible. I have had other pro amps (Crest and Behringer come to mind, but note this is a small sample and was several years ago) that were fairly light, unreliable, noisy (low SNR, high hiss, and noisy fans) and sounded like crap (can I say that here?) into a less-than-ideal speaker load. I had a big beautiful Phase Linear 700 that had incredible bass, noisy/piercing highs, and reliability of about one month between self-destructions. My Emotiva's have been working great, are quiet, and survived an accidental short (duh!) You could arc-weld with the old ML or Krell monoblocks that passed through my system (demo/review units; I couldn't afford them!) The bottom line is you have to try them and see. However, many here have; I am surprised there aren't more folk chiming in with their positive pro amp experiences. As I said, I have seen both sides. I will say that, despite there claimed reliability, I have run a home amp in a pro reinforcement systems only a couple of times in my life, and the results were OK once and disastrous the next (the consumer amp overheated and shut down in a performance -- it was a last-minute sub for a blown amp). I tend to find pro amps at home sound OK, a little noisy (SNR and fan), and sometimes a little "grainy" compared to a good consumer amp. Not sure I could pick one out in a ABX, especially a good pro amp.

Agreed. Pro amps catch a lot of flak around here, but I highly doubt few if any of the high dollar amps in the upper end home amp market could cut it for a week powering equipment in pro shows. Also, I recently began trying other amps besides my Behringer EP 4000 amps and the difference in sound quality was readily apparent.


I was a steep advocate that all amps sound alike at least within the same power requirements. I wil never utter those words again. I had recently thought about selling my fronts because they seemed a bit bass heavy along with slighlty muffled highs on various tracks.


I changed to a more powerful amp of another brand just for kicks and immediately the bass now sounds tighter, more accurate, though not as aggressive. And I have no problems hearing the highs at low volumes clearly now which I distinctly could not before.


I am not one to even try to act like I can profess any science to prove this. But I will not ignore what my ears are indeniably telling me. I've already sold one of my Behringer amps now, and plan to replace the rest as soon as possible.

 

A lot of the issue with amps is how they handle interaction with the load; speakers can be... interesting.


I have never been a Behringer fan, but have not listened to them recently. I have had a lot of pro amps, and consumer amps, and by and large I prefer them in their respective places. As I said, I would use a pro amp at home long before using a consumer amp on-stage... That said, most of the high-dollar SS consumer amps I have used would do OK on the road. - Don

 

Two things to think about:

a] Signal levels. Pro equipment uses higher signal voltages. Often a problem when using a pro signal processor into a consumer amplifier. The background noise may be high, because the pro gear is only using half of it's S/N ratio.


b] Fan noise. Some pro amps have always on fans.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedskater /forum/post/19860563


Two things to think about:

a] Signal levels. Pro equipment uses higher signal voltages.

I vehemently disagree with this in regard to amp input sensitivity. If you look at the input sensitivity of most pro amps vs most "consumer" amps they're very similar.


In fact, a while back I figured the average input sensitivity of my non-pro audio amps vs. my pro amps and the pro amps actually had higher input sensitivity (lower number) than my consumer amps.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by whoaru99 /forum/post/19861184


I vehemently disagree with this in regard to amp input sensitivity. If you look at the input sensitivity of most pro amps vs most "consumer" amps they're very similar.


In fact, a while back I figured the average input sensitivity of my non-pro audio amps vs. my pro amps and the pro amps actually had higher input sensitivity (lower number) than my consumer amps.

He may have been talking pro signal level, and not input sensitivity.


There are some pro amps with somewhat high input sensitivity.


If there's a problem, it may be with receiver pre outs not having enough drive for amps. The problem seems to be that the spec in the manuals does not correspond with the actual pre out level. I have noticed this in a few bench tests. And someone measured theirs and also noticed it was better than the 1 v RMS shown in the manual.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonddelts /forum/post/19859842


I recently purchased some Samson s converters and Cleanbox Pro converters last week. Before this purchase, I too was using all of my pro amps with their gain set to max. After hooking up the converters I was shocked by how weak the signal coming from my 1007 through my converter cables to my pro amps really was.


Now I have my amps set to half gain and they are MUCH louder at all levels than when I was using them at full gain without the converters just a few days earlier. The difference is astonishing. I will definitely be using signal converters from here on out.


But sadly, I still have the same buzzing and hiss issues though not as bad as before. I might try the cleanbox hum killer to take care of this problem. It's gotten favorable reviews online.

There shouldn't be any big revelation here. You've basically increased the relative gain of your system, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was incapable of producing full output without the converters or that you're getting any more maximum power out of it.


What you've done is make the system go "wide open" at a lower point on the volume dial so it seems more powerful.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/19861213


He may have been talking pro signal level, and not input sensitivity.


There are some pro amps with somewhat high input sensitivity.


If there's a problem, it may be with receiver pre outs not having enough drive for amps. The problem seems to be that the spec in the manuals does not correspond with the actual pre out level. I have noticed this in a few bench tests. And someone measured theirs and also noticed it was better than the 1 v RMS shown in the manual.

Of course we can always find an extreme example to support the case, the QSC PL 9.0 is something around 3.5V, I think. But, a popular amp like Behringer EPxxxx are around 1.25V, if I recall. This is actually lower than most of my home amps which are around 1.5V.


And yes, the preout voltage of receiver is misleading too because the "rated" output (eg 1V) is typically at a pretty low source input level like 150-200mV. When you've got 1-2 volts coming in from a DVD or CDP the nominal rated output will be considerably higher. For sake of discussion, say the receiver's rated input sensitivity is 150mV and rated output is 1V. This means ~16.5dB voltage gain or about 6.7x. So, if the input signal was actually 1V instead of 150mV, the receiver would be putting out 6.7V (assuming it was capable of that much clean output). Some may be, some may be capable of somewhat less clean output voltage.

 

Some pro amp have input sensitivity switches that allow you to properly match it to your headend equipment. In the case of receiver preouts differing from one model to the next, i say this would be only an issue to ANY amp IF the output voltage was too small or too much.

So i suppose some of the features that one would want are:

- High sound quality, i.e- low noise, good speaker control and high power.

- input sensitivity switch:'the capability to change from say 0.707v to 2v or more.

- low impedance capablity, down to 2 ohms.

- reasonable size, say 2 to 3 rack units.

- low distortion, less than 0.1 thd at rated power would sufficient.


Can you guys add any to the list.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by omega098 /forum/post/19863417


Some pro amp have input sensitivity switches that allow you to properly match it to your headend equipment. In the case of receiver preouts differing from one model to the next, i say this would be only an issue to ANY amp IF the output voltage was too small or too much.

So i suppose some of the features that one would want are:

- High sound quality, i.e- low noise, good speaker control and high power.

- input sensitivity switch:'the capability to change from say 0.707v to 2v or more.

- low impedance capablity, down to 2 ohms.

- reasonable size, say 2 to 3 rack units.

- low distortion, less than 0.1 thd at rated power would sufficient.


Can you guys add any to the list.

I think input sensitivity may be the only one of the five criteria you listed that you'll have to search a little find. I've only used a handful of pro amps but they all sounded good and almost all of them can handle 2ohms in stereo(2 ohms bridged is another story). Pretty sure the Crest CA series and Marathon MA amps have input sensitivity selection. QSC's older Powerlight2 series also had selectable input sensitivity, but you can only get those used now. I'm certain there are others but those are the only ones I can recall right now.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by diamonddelts /forum/post/19859878


Agreed. Pro amps catch a lot of flak around here, but I highly doubt few if any of the high dollar amps in the upper end home amp market could cut it for a week powering equipment in pro shows. Also, I recently began trying other amps besides my Behringer EP 4000 amps and the difference in sound quality was readily apparent.

What other pro amps have you listened to? Which did you choose?

 

Quote:Originally Posted by diamonddelts

Agreed. Pro amps catch a lot of flak around here, but I highly doubt few if any of the high dollar amps in the upper end home amp market could cut it for a week powering equipment in pro shows. Also, I recently began trying other amps besides my Behringer EP 4000 amps and the difference in sound quality was readily apparent.



What other pro amps have you listened to? Which did you choose?

I am using a hybrid fron Sonance, DSP 2-750. 500watts per channel at 8ohlms, no fan, no noise. Great amp for 1200 bucks street price.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by cmryan821 /forum/post/19864257


I think input sensitivity may be the only one of the five criteria you listed that you'll have to search a little find. I've only used a handful of pro amps but they all sounded good and almost all of them can handle 2ohms in stereo(2 ohms bridged is another story). Pretty sure the Crest CA series and Marathon MA amps have input sensitivity selection. QSC's older Powerlight2 series also had selectable input sensitivity, but you can only get those used now. I'm certain there are others but those are the only ones I can recall right now.

Level or gain controls are common though, which is more or less the same thing - they most definitely change input sensitivity in spite of what their name may imply (attenuating the input lowers the gain.)

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by omega098 /forum/post/19844949


Hello,

I'm new to this forum so please take it easy on the noob.

I've reading a lot but the more I read the more questions I have.

This is the deal, I like to upgrade my HT receiver power amp section and my 2 channel system, and maybe even build a sub one day,

, soooo....

It seems to me that a professional power amp would be a great alternative to many high price home theater and stereo power amps. A lot of these consumer amps seem underpowered, too expensive, too sensitive to heat, too big, heavy, etc.

Whereas a professional power amp occupies less space, are more rugged, higher power output, have better connections, generally smaller and are more affordable.

Is anybody using professional amps at home? If so what brands do you recommend? models? etc..

What made you choose one brand over the other?

I like to discuss the merits of both in a logical way so maybe this thread can be used by other members like myself that may want to do the same but are afraid to ask.

Thanks!

I have used BGW Systems pro amps for many years,They are very reliable USA built, and sound great,very quiet. I curently have 3, 2 channel amps in my HT.From there Profesional series,BGW 750G for my subs,and two BGW 200 for my sides and rears,I am looking for a BGW 350 for my center. but they are very hard to find newer used ones as they rarely are for sale,there are plenty of older ones around , but I like the newer ones they still make them. ATI now ownes BGW and they are sold on a made to order basis, These are old school power amps that work and sound great.

 

Old thread but lets see some new responses. I hate when there isn't even a hint of a conclusion to a good thread like this, considering all the smart minds available in the great AVS forum. These threads start out stong, but sometimes pitter out without a conclusion. I hope to not offend anyone, but lets pick out a pro amp that is good for home HiFi! It's been rehashed so many times, but never resolved in a mutual way. For example, I have a Denon X4000 that I want to power a pair of corner horns from 60-500hz, 99db woofer plus horn=whatever eff, high no doubt, 105db? I have been considering Yamaha P series amps for this purpose because of claimed good sound and low fan noise due to the fan almost never coming on in a home environment.

 

There are lots of good choices in pro amps but since systems and preferences vary you're never going to get a single definitive answer.

As for how much power you might need, look at an SPL calculator like the one below to get an idea:

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

 

I joined this Forum based on Brickie's thread New Amp Grinning . Then I purchased my first Tech Pro Blue Ice amp which lit my system up . They are one of the few that comes with rca connections so no need for Xlr to rca wires or clean boxes . As for the noisy fans I have them set up in an adjacent room I use for storage . Best bang for the buck indeed .

 

I'm one of those who uses pro gear at home. The reason I chose this route is because I realised I could get more for less with pro audio stuff than with home audio stuff. At first I was unsure whether or not I could live with the fan noise of pro  amps, but my amps are surprisingly pretty quiet unless you're right next to them. Moreover, you can get used to the fans after a while anyway, so I hardly notice them now at all. Having pro amplifiers also gives you a sense of reassurance that they'll stand the test of time because of the heavy workloads they're naturally designed to take on. Sound quality wise, all amps have their own unique characteristics so they'll all sound a little different from each other in some way or another. I'd say it's up to the individual to decided which amps sound better than others, according to his/her personal taste. I've always thought of it as the speakers that have the most influence on the sound you hear. As for size, the only pro amps that I've seen which are noticeably and considerably  smaller than home audio amps, are those slimline amps that fit into a1u rack space. I've owned some home audio amps that were built to last (Physically), and in comparison with the pro amps I own now, there's been little difference in physical ruggedness. But I think other features such as smaller flush mount gain controls, lockable gain controls (on some higher end pro gear), rear located power switches, XLR inputs and Speakon outputs, all add to the definition of ruggedness in pro amps. Such features make equipment more resistant to the likes of unauthorised people tampering with it, or accidents near the sound equipment resulting in settings being altered,  damage occurring or connections coming loose. I suspect they use better circuits in pro amps than home audio amps, along with toroidal transformers and the already mentioned cooling fans (among other things), which make up for increased long term reliability. After using pro gear now, it makes me feel like I've been missing out on obvious things that are vital to the longevity of audio equipment, such as force cooled heat dispersal (as opposed to free flowing heat dispersal), XLR connections (as opposed to troublesome RCA connections), Speakon connections (as opposed to small, fragile binding posts) etc. For the price they charge for consumer gear, you would expect the best possible or most effective technology available today. This stuff comes as standard with the price of pro audio gear. How much could it possibly cost to make a Speakon connector? An XLR connector? A 2 inch cooling fan that only requires string thin wire and about as much power as an electric toothbrush to run? It's not like it's going to bankrupt these home audio companies to include these things in their products.  After using pro gear I don't think I'd be able to feel contented with home audio gear again. I'm fairly new to the pro audio side of things, so a few names that have stood out to me in that time are Crown, QSC, Marshall, Peavey, Funktion One... to name but a few I'm sure.

 

I would choose Pro Amps over consumer amps anyday. Consumer amps are so mainstream because they are what are marketed at all consumer based stores, i.e., Best Buy, Frys, Crutchfield, etc. Consumer based AV processors have high margins, around 60-75%; audio products definitely have some of the highest if not the highest margins in the industry (AV furniture may have higher margins). Pro Amps do not have the same types of marketing and you don't see them advertised like consumer products. Even some pro amps are not sold where you can typically find pro amps like Guitar Center/Musicians Friend, Sweetwater, B&H, etc. Typically home theater AV surround amps are misleading in the sense that it may be stated that an amp is capable of 150 watts per channel but that is only for 2 channels. When you look at the output for 7 channels, surround sound, it will be closer to 40-60 watts per channel. Those types of AV processor are good for small bookshelf speakers with a sub but are not built for driving power hungry speakers. 65 watts driving a speaker vs 500 watts driving another speaker at the same db will be drastically different. The sound won't be louder, but more dynamic. The amount of power required to drive higher frequencies as compared to lower frequencies is drastically different. Large cinema speakers will only need 200 watts or so to drive the mid and high frequencies where as the lower frequencies will need more around 800 to 1000 watts just to create a balanced sound within the frequency range. Think of whistling, the small amount of energy it takes and the large distance the sound will travel vs how much energy it takes to push a low frequency "roar". Pro Amps are built for pushing the frequencies properly to create a rich dynamic sound. I have 500-600 watts pushing each of my front mains, but the sound isn't "louder" per say than a 50 watt per channel system, just full and rich. The quality of pro amps are built like tanks. QSC's cinema amplifiers have not changed, The model from 1999 is the same as the model in 2013, good quality is good quality and will last. A good amp will do what it is supposed to, amplify the signal across the frequency range cleanly without introducing distortion and this is what pro amps are built for.