IMO:

• Don't bother with the 125W (RMS), $650 REL or the 200W (RMS), $450 DefTech.
• Do strongly consider the 300W (RMS), servo-controlled, $630 Rythmik L12.

 

• Do strongly consider the 300W (RMS), servo-controlled, $630 Rythmik L12.

Thanks, pulled up the L12 this morning based on your recommendation of it in another thread; I might have passed because it is larger by a couple inches each way but am taking another look. Have you had a chance to compare it in person with any of the 3 I mentioned? And if L12 is out due to size would you say the REL and DefTech are still not worth buying (though they have to be better than no sub, right?)?

 

Agree with the Rythmik rec.

Clean, articulate bass, with good output in a smaller package.

 

I don't have any personal experience with any of the subs - I'm just making suggestions based on their specs and on the size of your family room. IMO neither the REL nor the DefTech represents a good value. The Rythmik is very well-regarded. There are other options for ~$900 but since compact size is important to you I'd go with the 3000 Micro.

 

Curious why you are limiting yourself to these three options?

What you are asking for is not uncommon: small box, small budget, solid performance in medium size room. This being the case I'd say none of your options are what you should be looking at.

Spit balling here but.....assuming your budget is arround $600: readjust your eyes to the
- RSL Speedwoofer The Speedwoofer 10S Subwoofer MKII - RSL Speakers
HSU VTF 2.5 VTF-2 MK5 Subwoofer (hsuresearch.com) Too big?
Or aforementioned Rythmik L12 Rythmik L12 - sealed HT sub (rythmikaudio.com) Sealed will be a compromise for HT in your size room, IMO.

I suspect you would wind up happy with any of these but the Hsu will have the largest box, yet provide the biggest impact down low for movies in your size room. The L12 will provide the best sound quality and integration (if you are willing to put in the effort) but because it is sealed, it will loose some impact down low in your room vs the other two options. The Speedwoofer is probably the best compromise between the L12 and the VTF2.5 from a cost/performance/size stand point. And a pair of them would be even better at $1100ish all in.

You can safely forget all three other options you are considering. None will perform as well as these three for the money.

But if your budget is really closer to $900 for the SVS Micro, then there are other options from HSU and Rythmik to consider.

Please advise on your firm budget and size limits for specific reco's.

 

Curious why you are limiting yourself to these three options?
Please advise on your firm budget and size limits for specific reco's.

WAF + Young Kids + High Traffic Family Room = search for smallest footprint that would still enhance overall experience. My limited previous experience suggested that if I go too cheap the sub could actually detract. Reading threads and 'expert reviews' lead me to 3 models at ~1cubic foot that seem well-regarded for filling a living room with very clean sound; however, could not find many comparative analyses.

Budget: $500-$1000 seems reasonable for my goals but not limited to any specific ceiling; I imagine subs this small only go so high in price

You are correct that VTF 2.5 is too big for this project. 10S MKII and the L12 are both ~14-16" cubes, but if consensus is they are truly game-changing compared to DN8, T/5x and 3000 Micro then it makes sense to think slightly bigger. And yes, I'm open to others in the 3000 Micro range that have similar footprint but much better sound.

SVS has an SB1000 on sale for $449 that would be better than what you're considering, though not by a mile. An SB3000 would be much better.

What speakers do you have?

My initial research suggested the 3000 Micro was nearly identical to SB1000, if not slightly higher sound quality, and so I'd lean towards the small footprint. But maybe that's based on too small of a research sample. SB3000 is too big for me.

Living room has GoldenEar Invisa HTR 8000 LCR, HTR 7000 and 650 surrounds (yes all in-ceiling...i know)

So far I'm hearing L12 if willing to increase size a bit. But if 12x12x12" is a hard cutoff then still might be better options than the orig 3?

 

Agree with the Rythmik. SVS has an SB1000 on sale for $449 that would be better than what you're considering, though not by a mile. An SB3000 would be much better. SVS also has a great return policy if the size proves too much though you do tend to get used to the size after a while. The subs you're looking at are better than nothing but not designed for a room your size. It's like getting a 25" TV to put on a wall 25 feet from your seat.

What speakers do you have?

 

Is Sealed better for HT and ported for Music?

 

No.

What is the actual max physical size box you can put in the room?

 

Look at the Starke. A bit deeper than 12", but the other two dimensions are fine. Said to be a good performer:

Product Details

Sealed design won't "growl" at you. That said, placement is key to getting good frequency response in the room, so having multiple placement options may yield better overall performance.

If a 12" cube is absolutely the max, then this should be a good choice, making the most of your available space:

SUB24 - 8" Subwoofer

 

I have both the Rythmik L12 and SVS 3000 Micro. I got the 3000 Micro because it was small and came in white (to pass the WAF test) and have it in the living room. I got the L12 to put in my basement which has a better 3.1 setup.

I was expecting the L12 to be better due to it's size. However the 3000 Micro is significantly better in my opinion. I A/B'd them in the same locations in my basement setup and the 3000 Micro always came out ahead. It was deeper, punchier, and worked better for both music and movies.

I would say that for the price (L12 at $629 and 3000 Micro at $899) they are the same value. By that I mean that the SVS seems to be about 30-40% better if I had to put numbers on it. The power of the SVS (800 watts) really makes it shine.

I'll add the very important caveat that I only did a halfhearted sub crawl to locate the subs. I don't have that much experience in finding the best sub location, but the SVS sub sounded better in each location that I tried.

 

No offense but this is an absurd comparison. Professional measurements and performance spec's are available for both products, as noted above, which will prove the performance abilities and value prop are heavily in favor of the L12. Your experience can be 100% attributed to set up and integration short comings.

 

Lol wish I worked for SVS. Both are good subs. I probably will get a second L12 for the basement at some point unless I go ported (i'm kinda regretting not getting a ported sub for the basement).

 

Understood, I'm sure you are more knowledgable and so appreciate the advice.

Just wanted to share that I was pleasently surprised by the Micro when directly comparing it to the L12. However I definitely realize larger cabinets have a huge advantage. I'm sure the 800W RMS / 2,5000W peak power of the Micro may help a bit to close that gap but the numbers you shared don't lie, most good 12" subs are going to reach deeper than the Micro.

 

I still have not seen any REL measurements from anyone that believes in their oil.

 

The Sound & Vision measurement of the REL T5 are hardly good.

REL T5 Subwoofer HT Labs Measures

HT Labs Measures This graph shows the quasi-anechoic (employing close-miking of the woofer) frequency response of the T5 subwoofer (blue trace). The T5’s close-miked response, normalized to the level at 80 hertz, indicates that the lower –3-decibel point is at 43 Hz and the –6-dB point is at 34...

www.soundandvision.com

 

I have dual REL T5x’s … They sound great but my main listening is 80 % music and 20% HT.
I would have to say if it were the other way around, I’d probably consider something else. I was not looking for couch shaking, rather separation / accuracy, being able to hear the difference between a bass drum and bass guitar and REL’s do a great job on that, the reason many audiophiles choose REL, but for movies, yea you get bass but lacks the shake if that’s what you’re looking for. Keep in mind the T5x is down firing and personally I’ve found front firing more effective for HT applications.
Just stay with the better grade brands known for subwoofer technology, Rythmik, REL, SVS, HSU, etc., they all offer subs’s specific to your listening preferences and I’m sure with a little research you’ll soon have a great addition to your set up.

 

^ That's ugly. I fail to see how this could be considered good for music when it's rolling off above 40htz.

 

Playing frequencies through a sound generator is not real life, I listen to music not frequency sweeps… It’s my system, and a very good one at that…For me they sound good and that’s all that counts isn’t it.

It’s not worth an argument, every listener and every listener’s environment is different, you want good sound, make sure you have good source material.
Even on a $100k+ system, garbage in garbage out…

The priority should be after a quality system with equipment synergy has been put together is the quality of the source material you play through it. Being a member of numerous audiophile groups and attending numerous audio expos & listen sessions I’ve seen plenty of systems that cost more than a house and sound pretty bad but spec wise should have knocked my socks off.

 

Playing frequencies through a sound generator is not real life

Yes, frequency sweeps are real life reproduction. Once you put in the effort, and listen, you will notice. I promise it's worth the effort to measure and listen.

"It’s not worth an argument, every listener and every listener’s environment is different, you want good sound, make sure you have good source material.
Even on a $100k+ system, garbage in garbage out… "

Yes, every room is different unless it is a true rectangle. And I agree, poor source in = garbage out. I dont think anyone disputes that.

"The priority should be after a quality system with equipment synergy has been put together is the quality of the source material you play through it. Being a member of numerous audiophile groups and attending numerous audio expos & listen sessions I’ve seen plenty of systems that cost more than a house and sound pretty bad but spec wise should have knocked my socks off."

Again no disagreement. Poorly integrated systems, not accounting for the room and placement within, will sound like garbage. Hence the need for measurements to confirm what you are hearing and verifying placement results in that specific room and with some DSP to smooth out the peaks.

The REL T5 mentioned adds value to main speakers from 45hrz - ~80ish htz. For the money they charge, it's a pure rip off in my book. There are so many better performers for a fraction of the money out there. I just hate to see people separated from their money due to marketing BS. You can get better performance from 45-80htz for a fraction of the cost if that is all one is looking to enhance. But for the same money, or less, why not get better performance from < 20htz to > 120htzs or whatever? while REL's products might complement some music only systems a bit, 45-80htz is pathetic performance for the money IMO.

 

My 2 cents.
Sunfire HS10.

Amazon.com: SUNFIRE 10" 1000W Powered Subwoofer Blk : Electronics

Amazon.com: SUNFIRE 10" 1000W Powered Subwoofer Blk : Electronics

www.amazon.com

I have 2 now in my 2.1. Size was a factor for me also.
I won't go into a review but they work well.

 

I have the SVS micro and an 18" ported PSA sub. I think most of you had the opportunity to try the Micro in your listening would be surprised how good it performs. I've been very happy with my little sub and have no doubt the OP would be satisfied if they deicide to buy one.