Whichever unit is the first to output analog is the one whose DAC is being used.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by brandon_k_w /forum/post/21513935


Does a component use its internal DAC as soon as the output becomes analog?

Yes.


DAC stands for Digital-to-Analog Converter. Any analog connection is after the DAC, while any digital connection is before the DAC.


It sounds like you are using your CD changer's DAC when playing CDs on the changer, and using your receiver's DAC when playing from your PS3 (audio over HDMI is digital).

 



Quote:
I've liked the sound on the CD changer better, and I assume it's because I'm listening to a different DAC.

This is a highly questionable assumption. There are numerous reasons why this might be so, and different DACs would be rather far down the list as a plausible explanation.

Quote:
Does a component use its internal DAC as soon as the output becomes analog?

Yes.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus /forum/post/21514040


This is a highly questionable assumption. There are numerous reasons why this might be so, and different DACs would be rather far down the list as a plausible explanation.

My ps3's music was ripped on the harddrive at 320kbps, while the CD changer used the actual music CD. The CD changer, in my opinion, portrayed a larger soundstage than the ps3. Sound levels were equal when measuring both the ps3 and CD changer. I don't see how it could be anything else other than the DAC.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by brandon_k_w /forum/post/21514109


My ps3's music was ripped on the harddrive at 320kbps, while the CD changer used the actual music CD. The CD changer, in my opinion, portrayed a larger soundstage than the ps3. Sound levels were equal when measuring both the ps3 and CD changer. I don't see how it could be anything else other than the DAC.

Maybe the ripping process/codec?

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by brandon_k_w /forum/post/21514109


Sound levels were equal when measuring both the ps3 and CD changer.

That's another questionable assumption, unless you measured the voltage at the speaker terminals with a multimeter. Using the volume knob or even a SPL meter won't get you within tolerances that can account for the perceived differences.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by brandon_k_w /forum/post/21514109


My ps3's music was ripped on the harddrive at 320kbps, while the CD changer used the actual music CD. The CD changer, in my opinion, portrayed a larger soundstage than the ps3. Sound levels were equal when measuring both the ps3 and CD changer. I don't see how it could be anything else other than the DAC.

There's your problem. MP3s are lossy, even the 320kbps. Most people that want high quality rips use flac ripped with EAC, although I know the PS3 didn't use to support that (not sure about now). Flac is compressed by lossless compression.

 



Quote:
My ps3's music was ripped on the harddrive at 320kbps, while the CD changer used the actual music CD. The CD changer, in my opinion, portrayed a larger soundstage than the ps3. Sound levels were equal when measuring both the ps3 and CD changer. I don't see how it could be anything else other than the DAC.

I'm quite sure that if we really level-matched them, and made you compare them without knowing which was which, the soundstages wouldn't seem nearly so different.


There's the occasional outlier, but by and large modern DACs are audibly indistinguishable. The explanation for your experience almost certainly rests elsewhere.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus /forum/post/21514436


I'm quite sure that if we really level-matched them, and made you compare them without knowing which was which, the soundstages wouldn't seem nearly so different.


There's the occasional outlier, but by and large modern DACs are audibly indistinguishable. The explanation for your experience almost certainly rests elsewhere.

i wouldn't be so sure even on modern stuff the SNR and IMD on lots of consumer items has been measured to vary by many dB


i could swear I hear a different sound stage between ipod shuffle original, sansa player and and ancient discman and i plan to dbl blind test it soon; i really didn't have any reason to believe any of them should have differed and I was initially struck by whoa how can it be sounding different it's not like a tape player these should all make everything sound exactly the same


maybe it's not the DAC IC itself but these things also have opamp and amp stages and so on too


but as I said I will dbl blind test it as soon as I can since some here believe that there is little chance that one should even be able to tell an ipod from a Benchmark DAC/AMP and not only with an easy to drive headphone with a flat impedance vs frequency curve but even hard to drive headphones and/or ones with extreme curves in the impedance vs frequency curves

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by brandon_k_w /forum/post/21514109


My ps3's music was ripped on the harddrive at 320kbps, while the CD changer used the actual music CD. The CD changer, in my opinion, portrayed a larger soundstage than the ps3. Sound levels were equal when measuring both the ps3 and CD changer. I don't see how it could be anything else other than the DAC.

I'd get out of this thread while you still can, man lol...in case you aren't aware of it, there is a group of folks here who are in the camp that while speakers differ in sound quality, amps, dacs, wires, power supplies, etc all sound the same (as long as they are properly designed.)


Right or wrong, threads like this usually take a turn into that type of debate, so just giving you a head's up.

 



Quote:
i wouldn't be so sure even on modern stuff the SNR and IMD on lots of consumer items has been measured to vary by many dB

Well, of course they sound different if you set the levels differently. As for SNR, sure, if you crank the levels up high enough, you could hear a difference in background noise when you aren't playing anything. But not typically at normally loud volumes while playing music or movie soundtracks.


Look, this isn't just idle opinion. These things have been tested at length, and many of those tests are publicly available. No one has ever presented a decently documented listening tests of DACs or CD players demonstrating that conventional DACs are audibly distinguishable. That DACs sound the same is pretty much accepted in the field, or at least the part of the field that isn't trying to sell you something.

Quote:
but as I said I will dbl blind test it as soon as I can since some here believe that there is little chance that one should even be able to tell an ipod from a Benchmark DAC/AMP and not only with an easy to drive headphone with a flat impedance vs frequency curve but even hard to drive headphones and/or ones with extreme curves in the impedance vs frequency curves

But that has nothing to do with the DAC. If an impedance problem at the output causes serious FR variances, of course that will be audible. But I'd put that down to the headphones, not the DAC.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by brandon_k_w /forum/post/21513935


I have been using my ps3 for listening to music, but ever since I've tried a CDP-CX571 (an old 90s Sony mega CD changer), I've liked the sound on the CD changer better, and I assume it's because I'm listening to a different DAC. The ps3 is being output via hdmi, and the CD changer only has analog output (red/white).


Does a component use its internal DAC as soon as the output becomes analog? I'm just trying to figure out what DAC is being used so that I can use it more often for music. I'm not sure if it's my receiver's DAC or the old 90s CD changer's DAC that I like over the ps3's DAC.

Play the same CD using the changer & PS3, & decide by yourself which DAC sounds better to you.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by jaymalya /forum/post/21515736


Play the same CD using the changer & PS3, & decide by yourself which DAC sounds better to you.

+1


And also compare CDs in the PS3 vs. MP3s of the same song. Lossless vs lossy.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus /forum/post/21515725


Well, of course they sound different if you set the levels differently. As for SNR, sure, if you crank the levels up high enough, you could hear a difference in background noise when you aren't playing anything. But not typically at normally loud volumes while playing music or movie soundtracks.


Look, this isn't just idle opinion. These things have been tested at length, and many of those tests are publicly available. No one has ever presented a decently documented listening tests of DACs or CD players demonstrating that conventional DACs are audibly distinguishable. That DACs sound the same is pretty much accepted in the field, or at least the part of the field that isn't trying to sell you something.



But that has nothing to do with the DAC. If an impedance problem at the output causes serious FR variances, of course that will be audible. But I'd put that down to the headphones, not the DAC.

1. yes, but everything the OP was comparing had other elements other than the DAC IC or exact DAC stage itself involved without any way to remove the other elements so I was just saying that even the DAC IC in all his stuff made no difference he might still hear a difference even if perhaps his just using "DAC" to compare everything is sloppy usage (and from what I've read some of the strictly DAC stages in the oldest CD players were very poor compared to any old modern one and could be picked apart in blind tests)


2. why is it a problem with the headphones? Why should they not be free to design as best they can assuming a low impedance output rather than constrain themselves to potentially worse or trickier designs?

And just being practical, the headphones we have out there now are what we have and it seems that almost all headphones differ in THD at the bass end due to this (although THD probably matters less down there) and a many of the ones often recommended happen to be either low impedance and/or with large variations in impedance vs. frequency. So rather than wishing that was not the case why not just be more practical and buy stuff that can drive whatever you might possible wish to ever get in terms of headphones at their best?

 



Quote:
1. yes, but everything the OP was comparing had other elements other than the DAC IC or exact DAC stage itself involved without any way to remove the other elements so I was just saying that even the DAC IC in all his stuff made no difference he might still hear a difference even if perhaps his just using "DAC" to compare everything is sloppy usage (and from what I've read some of the strictly DAC stages in the oldest CD players were very poor compared to any old modern one and could be picked apart in blind tests)

Now you're agreeing with everything I said. So why are you still arguing with me?