Generally speaking, 80Hz is considered to be the frequency at which sound waves become not-directional / not-localizeable.


Good bookshelf speakers will extend to ~70Hz (or even ~60Hz); satellite speakers usually don't extend below 100Hz (and sometimes barely below 120Hz or so).

 

Thanks!


Well in my case I'm considering getting the Monitor Audio Radius 90 speakers. According to the tech spec, they go down to 80 Hz.


When you say that "80Hz is considered to be the frequency at which sound waves become not-directional / not-localizeable", do you mean that 80 Hz is where the sound is starting to become non-directional, or where it is completely non-directional?


Will the sound blend more "seamlessly" between the subwoofer and e.g. a Monitor Audio Silver 1 speaker that goes down to 45 Hz? Or will that not help, since the Radius90 already goes down to 80 Hz which is sufficient anyway?

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjodor2000  /t/1534002/lowest-satellite-speaker...llite-speaker-frequency-needed-for-seamless-subwoofer-integration#post_24780756


Thanks!


Well in my case I'm considering getting the Monitor Audio Radius 90 speakers. According to the tech spec, they go down to 80 Hz.


When you say that "80Hz is considered to be the frequency at which sound waves become not-directional / not-localizeable", do you mean that 80 Hz is where the sound is starting to become non-directional, or where it is completely non-directional?


Will the sound blend more "seamlessly" between the subwoofer and e.g. a Monitor Audio Silver 1 speaker that goes down to 45 Hz? Or will that not help, since the Radius90 already goes down to 80 Hz which is sufficient anyway?

I agree with Eljay. 80hz is normally not localizable. You run the risk of making it so above 80hz. Your speakers should be able to be fairly flat (within a couple of db) in terms of frequency response down to 80 hz.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjodor2000  /t/1534002/lowest-satellite-speaker...llite-speaker-frequency-needed-for-seamless-subwoofer-integration#post_24780756


Thanks!


Well in my case I'm considering getting the Monitor Audio Radius 90 speakers. According to the tech spec, they go down to 80 Hz.

 

I would say that these speakers are borderline for being able to play flat to 80 Hz, especially since the manufacturer does not state their -3 dB point, and they are rather small.   I have seen waaaaaaaaay too many claims in which 80 Hz is stated, when in reality, they are down 10 dB at 80 Hz.  So without specifying a -3 or -1dB point, a FR is very ambiguous.  A safer bet is to go with speakers that can play flat +/- 3 dB to at least 60 Hz, since crossed at 80, the overlap region between subs and mains will be in the 60-100 Hz region on either side of the crossover.  If you cannot or are not willing to accommodate a slightly larger bookshelf speaker, they look to be decent for their size.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123  /t/1534002/lowest-satellite-speaker...llite-speaker-frequency-needed-for-seamless-subwoofer-integration#post_24780936


I would say that these speakers are borderline for being able to play flat to 80 Hz, especially since the manufacturer does not state their -3 dB point, and they are rather small.

+1. Even if able to reach 80Hz, with a single four inch driver they won't do so with much authority. They also have very low sensitivity at only 83dB. A simple rule of thumb is that if you want to get to 80Hz at decent levels with four or five inch drivers the speaker needs at least two of them. To reach high levels without stress requires a pair of sixes or a single eight. And where frequency response and sensitivity claims are concerned, if there is no measured response chart available, either from the manufacturer or a reputable third party, don't believe them.

As an aside, there's something seriously suspect about the claimed maximum SPL of the Monitor Audio line. They show the spec measured on the dBA scale. dBA is never used to measure speakers.

 

I would say in the case of the Monitor Audio Radius 90, it is not borderline to 80Hz. If you look at the specifications, they do not claim a tolerance for the frequency response that they give:

http://www.monitoraudiousa.com/products/radius/radius-90/#/specification


Which means, it could be 10 dB down, 20 dB down, or any other amount down. In my opinion, those are not suitable for an 80 Hz crossover, and I would not recommend buying them.


In my opinion, you should look for a speaker rated down to 65 Hz (or lower) at -3dB for use with an 80 Hz crossover. Usually, this means a 5" or larger woofer, though I would judge this by performance, not the size of the woofer.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper  /t/1534002/lowest-satellite-speaker...llite-speaker-frequency-needed-for-seamless-subwoofer-integration#post_24781525


In my opinion, you should look for a speaker rated down to 65 Hz (or lower) at -3dB for use with an 80 Hz crossover. Usually, this means a 5" or larger woofer, though I would judge this by performance, not the size of the woofer.

With an 80Hz crossover having the mains down 3dB at 80hz is in theory perfect, as that will result in flat response when summed with the sub output. The problem lies in being able to trust the manufacturer's -3dB spec, if they even list it at all. I run fours to 80Hz with no problem. But I have eight each in my L/R mains.

 

But how hard is the 80 Hz limit? Reading the comments above, it sounds like at 79 Hz is is not possible to locate sound direction, but at 81 Hz it clearly is.

But is the limit really that strict?


Or will e.g. 90 Hz crossover be satisfactory? And will 70 Hz crossover give any improvement at all compared to 80 Hz?

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjodor2000  /t/1534002/lowest-satellite-speaker...llite-speaker-frequency-needed-for-seamless-subwoofer-integration#post_24785868


But how hard is the 80 Hz limit? Reading the comments above, it sounds like at 79 Hz is is not possible to locate sound direction, but at 81 Hz it clearly is.

But is the limit really that strict?


Or will e.g. 90 Hz crossover be satisfactory? And will 70 Hz crossover give any improvement at all compared to 80 Hz?

of course not. different folks respond differently, and AFAIK, it's not necessarily the 80 Hz tone that you are localizing but maybe the (much lower in level but sticking out like a sore thumb) secon harmonic at 169 Hz (all real sounds have harmonics) that really makes you turn your head toward the sub . . . . Your own experience in your own room with your own setup controls, IMO. There was no crossover setting low enough that I couldn't locate my sub when it was in the right front corner. Not because I have a 6 foot wide head or have superhuman hearing capacity. My guess is it was rattling something subtly over in its corner. I didn't hear it as a separate rattle, but it made the bass move to the right. Because we, as humans with heads less than 6 feet wide, mostly identify dirextion from frequencies far above 80 H.

 

Personally I look for solid output to 60Hz. I seem to be a bit sensitive to voices, and too often an 80Hz crossover makes them sound a little 'chesty' and unnatural. That half an octave makes a difference for me.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson  /t/1534002/lowest-satellite-speaker...llite-speaker-frequency-needed-for-seamless-subwoofer-integration#post_24786455


Personally I look for solid output to 60Hz. I seem to be a bit sensitive to voices, and too often an 80Hz crossover makes them sound a little 'chesty' and unnatural. That half an octave makes a difference for me.

IIRC my fronts are crossed at 60 Hz but in my relatively brief informal testing I did not hear significant differences with crossovers from 50-80 Hz in my system in my room. Likely in part because my testing was with music at probably 75 dB average levels. I imagine even my little paradigm s10s don't compress noticeably at those levels. And my personal bias is lower crossover is better. But for loud stuff I would likely be more accurate with a higher crossover to relieve strain on my little woofers . . .

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjodor2000  /t/1534002/lowest-satellite-speaker...llite-speaker-frequency-needed-for-seamless-subwoofer-integration#post_24785868


But how hard is the 80 Hz limit? Reading the comments above, it sounds like at 79 Hz is is not possible to locate sound direction, but at 81 Hz it clearly is.

But is the limit really that strict?

The actual limit is closer to 120Hz. That's why 120Hz is the upper limit for LFE channel content. However, the LFE track is digitally brick wall filtered at 120Hz. The standard crossovers in AVRs are not brickwall, and even if they were the sub driver itself creates harmonics well above the crossover frequency, and those harmonics are directionally locatable. 80Hz is used as an average ball park figure, where chances are above bandwidth content won't be directionally locatable. In short, if you want to be sure that the sub isn't playing enough content above 120Hz that it can be located you cross over around 80Hz.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjodor2000  /t/1534002/lowest-satellite-speaker...llite-speaker-frequency-needed-for-seamless-subwoofer-integration#post_24785868


But how hard is the 80 Hz limit? Reading the comments above, it sounds like at 79 Hz is is not possible to locate sound direction, but at 81 Hz it clearly is.

But is the limit really that strict?


Or will e.g. 90 Hz crossover be satisfactory? And will 70 Hz crossover give any improvement at all compared to 80 Hz?

You can locate 80 Hz test tones pretty easy with a proper setup. You need a stereo bass setup with speakers in the front of the room to test this. For example having a setup like a single subwoofer near field and behind you will tell you little.


I find that I can not locate a 50 Hz test tone, and I can just barely locate a 60 Hz test tone. An 80 Hz test tone is pretty easy to locate when you have a stereo bass setup.

 

The more distortion, the easier to localize 80hz. You can't localize 80hz with a good clean sub. As you up in hz or the more distortion, it gradually gets easier to localize.

 

An update: I checked, and the Radius 200 center speaker that is supposed to be used with the front and rear Radius 90 speakers is specified at 60 Hz lowest frequency. So will that help, even if the Radius 90 front speakers are only specified at 80 Hz lowest frequency?


I.e. will the the Radius 200 center speaker then reduce the effect of being able to localize where the low frequency sound sound comes from (subwoofer vs other speakers)?

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjodor2000  /t/1534002/lowest-satellite-speaker...speaker-frequency-needed-for-seamless-subwoofer-integration/0_100#post_24805892


An update: I checked, and the Radius 200 center speaker that is supposed to be used with the front and rear Radius 90 speakers is specified at 60 Hz lowest frequency. So will that help, even if the Radius 90 front speakers are only specified at 80 Hz lowest frequency?


I.e. will the the Radius 200 center speaker then reduce the effect of being able to localize where the low frequency sound sound comes from (subwoofer vs other speakers)?

Only for the sounds coming from the center channel. For the other channels, if you set the crossover so that you do not lose sound by having a gap between the capabilities of them and the subwoofer, the center channel will have no effect on this.


Basically, you want all of the frequencies reproduced from all of the channels. This means that anything that a particular speaker cannot do needs to be sent to the subwoofer. So a more capable center channel speaker will be helpful for the center channel sounds, but it changes nothing for the other channels.


Given the capabilities of your small speakers, you probably want to put the subwoofer up front in the middle, so that most of the sound will be coming from roughly the right direction regardless, since most of the sound comes from the front in a soundtrack or with music.



Also, Monitor Audio does not claim a tolerance for the frequency response they give, so that 60 Hz could be 10dB or 20dB or any other amount down. In other words, their frequency response claim is essentially meaningless. So in your case, if you have an automatic setup in your receiver, use whatever it claims for the crossover, provided that it is at least as high as the low end claim of Monitor Audio. If the automatic setup sets the crossover at 120 Hz, I recommend you use 120 Hz with those speakers.

 

Thanks! I searched and found some frequency response measurements for the Radius 90 , 180 and 360 (subwoofer). It's not directly comparable to the new updated Radius series 90, 200 and e.g. 380/390 (subwoofer). But it might give some indication:

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/monitor-radius-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures




Radius 90 (purple), 180 (green), 360 (blue).

Quote:
The Radius 90's listening-window response (a five-point average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal and vertical responses) measures +2.55/–3.14 decibels from 200 hertz to 10 kilohertz. The –3dB point is at 124 Hz, and the –6dB point is at 96 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 5.02 ohms at 66 Hz and a phase angle of –38.91 degrees at 179 Hz. Sensitivity averages 84.5 dB from 500 Hz to 2 kHz.


The Radius 180's listening-window response measures +1.24/–3.67 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. An average of axial and +/–15-degree horizontal responses measures +1.32/–3.40 dB from 200 Hz to 10 kHz. The –3dB point is at 110 Hz, and the –6dB point is at 87 Hz. Impedance reaches a minimum of 5.07 ohms at 326 Hz and a phase angle of –37.62 degrees at 154 Hz. Sensitivity averages 84.5 dB from 500 Hz to 2 kHz.


The Radius 360's close-miked response in the audio mode, normalized to the level at 80 Hz, indicates that the lower –3dB point is at 54 Hz and the –6dB point is at 43 Hz. The upper –3dB point is at 219 Hz with the frequency control set to maximum

Note however that the Radius 90 measured above was specified at 85 Hz, where as the new Radius 90 is specified at 80 Hz. So the new version might go a little lower, but only a frequency response measurement can tell for sure of course.


Anyway, it still amazes me that they specify the old Radius 90 model at 85 Hz, when it's actually only 124 Hz (-3dB). How can they even come up with the 85 Hz number in their tech spec sheet, when it's not even close? But I guess they are not the only ones cheating...

 

Based on the frequency response graph in my previous post showing the Radius R90's actual low frequency response being limited to 124 Hz, isn't it strange that no reviews have commented on this as being a problem? Check out e.g. this , this and this .


For example What HiFi says "The surround field, too, is gapless, with effects flowing between channels effortlessly, immersing you deep in the action.".


And Trusted Review says : "What also makes this system so persuasive is its cohesive, unified sound – the speakers blend seamlessly with each other, and when effects sweep around the room they do so with no discernable variation in tone or timbre (the beauty of using identical satellites). The subwoofer’s fluid but hard-hitting bass meshes invisibly with the R90s’ midrange."


It seems like this doesn't add up. Either the actual frequency response is different from what was shown in my previous post, or the theory that the speakers must go down to 80 Hz (ideally 60 Hz) does not hold, or the reviewers are missing something?

 

With subwoofers, if the crossover is low enough, one can put the subwoofer anywhere in the room one wishes, in order to best serve the frequencies it reproduces, because one will not be able to locate it by the sound. However, if the crossover is a bit higher, then one will need to concern oneself with being able to locate it by sound.


Humans do not suddenly go from no localization to perfect localization; the process is somewhat gradual as the frequency approaches the midrange. In the case of the speakers you have, it is likely not too bad if one puts the subwoofer up front in the middle.


Also, some of the review sites are pretty worthless, so that is another thing to consider. One can read online that the earth is really flat, so one should be careful about trusting things one finds online. You should reread this paragraph several times to get it to sink in. The internet is not to be trusted. Neither are other sources; there is a lot of nonsense that people claim.


Also, anyone who cares about this issue, is not looking at such tiny speakers, and wants something that will be suitable for use with a lower crossover.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjodor2000  /t/1534002/lowest-satellite-speaker...llite-speaker-frequency-needed-for-seamless-subwoofer-integration#post_24806938


Based on the frequency response graph in my previous post showing the Radius R90's actual low frequency response being limited to 124 Hz, isn't it strange that no reviews have commented on this as being a problem? Check out e.g. this , this and this .


For example What HiFi says "The surround field, too, is gapless, with effects flowing between channels effortlessly, immersing you deep in the action.".


And Trusted Review says : "What also makes this system so persuasive is its cohesive, unified sound – the speakers blend seamlessly with each other, and when effects sweep around the room they do so with no discernable variation in tone or timbre (the beauty of using identical satellites). The subwoofer’s fluid but hard-hitting bass meshes invisibly with the R90s’ midrange."


It seems like this doesn't add up. Either the actual frequency response is different from what was shown in my previous post, or the theory that the speakers must go down to 80 Hz (ideally 60 Hz) does not hold, or the reviewers are missing something?

Provided the reviewers had their crossover set properly those descriptions could indeed hold true. 'flowing effortlessly and 'blending seamlessly' are certainly possible if everything was tuned correctly. If the -3dB point for the R90's is 124Hz though, and someone set the crossover for 80 - or worse, 60 - then there's no way for them to blend seamlessly. There would have been a very noticeable gap.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjodor2000  /t/1534002/lowest-satellite-speaker...llite-speaker-frequency-needed-for-seamless-subwoofer-integration#post_24806098


Thanks! I searched and found some frequency response measurements for the Radius 90 , 180 and 360 (subwoofer). It's not directly comparable to the new updated Radius series 90, 200 and e.g. 380/390 (subwoofer). But it might give some indication:

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/monitor-radius-speaker-system-ht-labs-measures




Radius 90 (purple), 180 (green), 360 (blue).

Frankly, I'm rather surprised at the 15K-20K 10db spike!

 

Common for cheap domes to have break up in that region. The better ones try to push break up out past 20khz where nobody looks. I wouldn't be to worried about it. I'd be more worried about the peak dip combo between 1 and 2khz.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic  /t/1534002/lowest-satellite-speaker...llite-speaker-frequency-needed-for-seamless-subwoofer-integration#post_24810254


Common for cheap domes to have break up in that region. The better ones try to push break up out past 20khz where nobody looks. I wouldn't be to worried about it. I'd be more worried about the peak dip combo between 1 and 2khz.

The whole speaker then doesn't seem to be worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimWilson  /t/1534002/lowest-satellite-speaker...llite-speaker-frequency-needed-for-seamless-subwoofer-integration#post_24807699


Provided the reviewers had their crossover set properly those descriptions could indeed hold true. 'flowing effortlessly and 'blending seamlessly' are certainly possible if everything was tuned correctly. If the -3dB point for the R90's is 124Hz though, and someone set the crossover for 80 - or worse, 60 - then there's no way for them to blend seamlessly. There would have been a very noticeable gap.

On the chart, the "subwoofer" seems to be set up to the 120hz region but doesn't look much good under 60hz.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by charmerci  /t/1534002/lowest-satellite-speaker...llite-speaker-frequency-needed-for-seamless-subwoofer-integration#post_24810271


On the chart, the "subwoofer" seems to be set up to the 120hz region but doesn't look much good under 60hz.

+1. The sub and mains will integrate reasonably well if they're placed close enough together that the directional frequencies from the sub aren't obviously coming from a different location. But that leaves remote placement of the sub and mains out of the question. And the sub is barely adequate in low frequency extension for music, out of the question for HT.

 



Quote:
Originally Posted by charmerci  /t/1534002/lowest-satellite-speaker...llite-speaker-frequency-needed-for-seamless-subwoofer-integration#post_24810213


Frankly, I'm rather surprised at the 15K-20K 10db spike!

Yikes, think they might sound a little sharp? http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys.php