1) There are affordable speakers that perform well for the cost. Pretty much any set of modern speakers with an AVR will outperform your soundbar. The difference from tv speakers to soundbar is about the same as soundbar to separates in my experience--that is, it will be instantly noticeable.

2) There are slim center channels. I know Polk and Klipsch both make some, but I don't have the knowledge to recommend what might be best. Keep in mind that "slim" for a center speaker is still 5-7" tall.

3) you can place the speakers in an open cabinet. It may impact the sound, but, again, it will still outperform the soundbar. Just make sure the front of the speaker isn't behind the lip of the cabinet.

 

Get a table top swivel TV stand off of amazon and you can fit any center you desire under your TV. Plus the dinky feet are unstable and sucky.

Good centers start in the 300-400 range and go up from there. Don't bother with the ones with small drivers. Small drivers equals small sound. You want something that can accurately reproduce male voices like this:
Ascend CMT-340 SE
this:
Mono 365C
or this:
Klipsch RP-504C

Plan for at least a 3.1 system if you are going that rout and probably have to budget 1500 or more realistically to do it, but you don't have to buy everything at once either so that helps.

 

I’ve been considering updating my soundbar to a 2.1 channel system and based on what I’ve been reading, maybe I need a center channel too.

Having never had an audio system with a center channel speaker, I gots questions.

• My seating position is about 9 feet away and obviously I want the sound/dialog coming from a CC speaker to be clear. We don’t crank up the volume very much when watching shows or movies. How much do I need to spend on a speaker to get decent quality. A quick Amazon search returned speakers from $50 to sky’s the limit. I am not an audio purist. I’ve been satisfied with my $250 soundbar so I don’t want to replace it with something with worse performance.
• My tv is on the highest position for its feet but it only gives 3 and a half inches of space between the tv console and the bottom of the tv. A lot of the CC speakers I see are 5” high or taller. Obviously the size of the speakeris affected by the size of the speakers. Is this to be expected? Are there slimmer ones?
• Given the previous question, can the CC speaker be placed in a slot in the tv cabinet without affecting its sound? The slot is not blocked by doors.

All you need is one of these TABLETOP stands to make real center speakers fit under TV

Decent center speakers start at about $400...$800-1000 might be the sweet spot. Price-ascending sorted list here:
CENTER speakers from $300-5000 (updated 9/03/25)

 

On a related note, look for an entry level Denon AVR. No need to spend a lot on electronics. I'm suggesting Denon because their AVRs come with Audyssey, which has a loudness feature (dynamic volume). Many people like that feature for helping improve dialogue. But the biggest impact on clarity will be the quality of the center.

 

If you can't physically fit a good center channel speaker, I'd recommend a good 2.1 system over a compromised 3.1. A 2.1 system will create a phantom image of the center dialog and can sound pretty good. It is not without some limitations, but it can be a really good solution that often gets overlooked.

 

This. in fact I have moved away from centre speakers altogether. Whatever you budget add the cost of the centre speaker to upgrade your front and they will sound so much better than 3 cheaper ones. You don’t need a centre. I would go so far as to say it’s a bit of a con. My HT opened up immensely with the deletion of a centre.

 

Dang! This hobby is not for the faint of heart or thin of wallet. LOL

My initial thought was to start with something like a Wiim Amp and some decent but not high end speakers and maybe a subwoofer if it fit into my budget of $1000. But if I want to add a center channel then the Wiim wouldn’t work. So that means I need to start looking at AVRs. Since I’m building my set up with individual components, I can start small and add on and even replace if something isn’t working out. I like a minimal aesthetic so I’d like to avoid having giantboxes scattered around the room. That was the appeal of the soundbar.

I like the idea of the center stand for the tv. I actually have one for an older tv in the bedroom. I do like the legs of my Sony tv but if I do replace them, that would mean I’d be resting the center speaker on top of its base. I assume I’d need some sort of sound deadening material underneath to prevent unwanted vibrations?

 

Not essential as the center crossed over wont be producing much bass but you can put little felt furniture pads under if you like. I did to protect the glass base.

You can get a pretty decent receiver for under 400 here with the denon x1700h:
slickdeals-home-theater-open-box

 

Dang! This hobby is not for the faint of heart or thin of wallet. LOL

Depends on how much you're willing to think outside of the box and go down less well-trodden paths, really.

My initial thought was to start with something like a Wiim Amp and some decent but not high end speakers and maybe a subwoofer if it fit into my budget of $1000.

This is how I'd do 3.1 with a $1K budget:

• RSL 10e sub, $340
• 5-10 year old used AVR from FB Marketplace or Craigslist, $75-150
• FL/FR speakers, $140/pr = Neumi BS5 LINK
• Center, $370 = Klipsch 504C LINK

That's exactly $1K. If you can go $210 above, get a pair of Klipsch 600M from Amazon for $350/pr.

 

Given your constraints, and if you are only concerned about your one seat, skip the center. Trying to shoehorn one in to a setup that didn't design for it will force too many compromises.

There are only 2 reasons I'm using a center speaker.

1. I watch movies with my SO and I've sat in seats 1 & 3 and know how skewed the sound is to one side without it
2. My center speaker is identical so it's good enough that I can put up with the downside of the image shifting slightly and it being less of a wall-o-sound like 2.1 is. If it were inferior or not ideally placed it would sound better with just 2.1 for myself sitting in the middle seat.

My setup.

 

Given your constraints, and if you are only concerned about your one seat, skip the center. Trying to shoehorn one in to a setup that didn't design for it will force too many compromises.

Apologies I didn’t provide info on seating set up. I have a small L-shaped couch 9 feet in front of the tv where 3-4 people will sit to watch movies. When there’s just m wife and me, I will snag the middle position. 😄😄😄. She prefers to sit on the left that has the L so she can stretch out her legs.

 

Given that detail, I would recommend a center speaker. But you need to make the space for it. It should be unimpeded on all sides and not enclosed in a cave or it will sound like it. And, it shouldn't require raising the height of your display.

 

I am definitely going to have to replace my tv console. It’s 29” tall. The tv sits a bit too high for my liking. Definitely not at the recommended height. Putting a center speaker in front of it would require me to raise the tv position even more.

Even if I don’t get the center channel for now, I’d probably still want to get a lower console.

 

I'd just buy three of these and an inexpensive AVR then sit back and enjoy the sound until you can afford a big sub. Yeah, that little speaker will do for a center too. I would never recommend something I have never heard, and until last week I had never heard the Minis.

I own a pair now and can heartily recommend them. They have big speaker sound! I've heard one other speaker about the same size of the True Mini, sounded very good, but that was about double the cost. I don't recall the brand. Small speakers can sound big, and the True Mini delivers.

Many of the regulars here recommend the front three speakers to be the same. The size of these True Minis should not be much problem finding a place for the center speaker. It can be laid on it's side too. It's only 6" high on it's side, and just under 1 foot sitting upright.

You don't need a $500-$1000 center. Phantom centers are OK, but you can't turn them up, or for that matter, down. A center speaker driven by an AVR can do both. And the center is where most of the dialog comes from. Once it's set properly you won't be asking

"whatdithesay?"

 

I'd just buy three of these

Are any of the Philharmonic bookshelves sold as singles? I couldn't find any page on their website offering that option.

 

I thought typical ear level was about 42" or so. My experience is as long as that 42" falls somewhere on the bottom half of the panel then that's a pretty good compromise where the center isn't too low and the TV isn't too high. That way and assuming you are watching it from 8-10 feet away then the angle that you are looking up is very slight, if at all, and people tend to slouch back when watching for prolonged periods anyway. My furniture is about 29" and it works great for the center and overall sound. Plus it's good for the posture to not be looking down all the time like we do. Too high is the dreaded TV over the fireplace abomination.

 

A high display causes both neck strain and eye strain. For me that quickly develops into a bad headache. You want your eyeballs to be in the bottom half of their range and your neck to be neutral.

Anyway, there is no way you can have a center channel speaker at ear level. It will be lower and it will be aimed upward unless yes, the TV is over the fireplace, and you will be endlessly taunted for that on the forums.

 

 

amazing one

 

Indeed, physics limits what we can do and there is no way to both have a center speaker at ear level and our eyes at the center of the display unless it is a projection screen.

The top of my 77" display is 60" off the floor though and that is borderline for me. I can't go higher without neck strain. The bottom is at 21". My seated ear height is 36".

 

So slightly lower seating wise for you then. I believe the rec is 40-42 is typical seated ear height. My ear height is at about 40" when slightly slouched and relaxed on the couch (higher if sitting fully upright). So your TV is centered at about 40" and still a few inches higher than your ear height. Which is about right IME and exactly what I am suggesting. Ear height should be somewhere on the bottom half of the panel. You kind of have to try it though to see what works best for you at your viewing distance and that's where individual preference comes in. Some like a TV even higher as they view semi-reclined. There is no wrong answer. Just relentless mocking if you put it over the fireplace.

 

First, be aware that there are more subpar center channel speakers than good ones, including those from major manufacturers. Second, you won't find a decent one that is only 3.5 inches tall, but this is easily solved by putting some type of 'riser' under the feet of your TV, so that is not really a limitation. Some of the truly exceptional ones include the ELAC UC52 and any models from SVS or KEF. Enjoy!

 

2 nice smaller speakers and a sub or 2 larger speakers with no sub is better than a soundbar and you don't need a center speaker. If you don't listen to music, you could argue that a nicer soundbar is still an option. If you place the left and right speakers correctly, you will get a center image. I didn't see you mention an amp. You will need an amp or powered speakers. If you do powered speakers, it is hard to go wrong with KEF. If you are going to have an amp, safe choices are Paradigm, ( they are going on sale) Elac, or don't be afraid of nicer used speakers. Speakers don't ware out.

 

I'd get a lower console. Good center speakers are around 6-9" high. And, you don't want to raise that tv too high.

 

SVS Ultra Evolution Center Channel!

https://www.dpbolvw.net/click-84427...7350?sid=autolinker&url=https://www.svsound.com/products/ultra-evolution-center

 

Go with three speakers on the front dude! At least try to do it right! You will appreciate a system that is not fully dependent on DSP (digital sound processing) that has to magically create a speaker that is not there. It always sounds so gimmicky to me.

 

You’re asking in the speaker forum, so the answer is almost certainly going to be a receiver and separate speakers from this group. But I’m going to give you a different answer - stick with a soundbar and just buy a better one that fits your budget.

Sometimes the best audio solution isn’t the best sounding. Sometimes easy trumps everything. Personally I have a Sonos Beam and I generally couldn’t be happier. It doesn’t sound as good as my previous system but I rarely hear screams of “there’s no sound coming out of the TV” anymore. That counts!

Pick a budget, pick a complexity level (soundbar, number of surrounds, etc), and you’ll undoubtedly be far happier with the sound than you are now.

I will add that if you have a Samsung or LG TV, you may want to stick with a soundbar from them as they’ll also use the TV speakers to form the sound. And they’ll also be very easy to set up and use.

 

I will add that if you have a Samsung or LG TV, you may want to stick with a soundbar from them as they’ll also use the TV speakers to form the sound. And they’ll also be very easy to set up and use.

Sony does this, too.

It depends how much enjoyment you get out of the sound coming from your system. I think the OP is here because he wants something more.

 

Buy the best that will fit your room and put it as close to the proper height as you can.

 

Hi,
I purpose a diferent strategy: Upgrade the amount saving some $ more on coming months, than target a 2.1 or 5.1 or 7.1, Bose system, wireless or not. Any doubts, book an audition. Also they (Bose or certified Agent) will check sound and other features, preparing properly your "Dome"....
Let us know results.
Cheers

 

If you're in Southern California, maybe I can help you ..

 

Thanks for the offer but I’m in S. Florida. I’m still mulling my options.

 

Run a speaker test on Youtube. It will present sound from each channel. If you hear a phantom center, you don't need a speaker. I removed mine and it sounded better since less was directed to the center,

 

One needs to send signals to two speakers simultaneously to even create a phantom speaker. Most YouTube speakers tests only send monophonic signals to one speaker at a time. So what you're suggesting is not as easy as it seems. Do you have a link to a YouTube video that can send stereo test signals?

To the OP:

A phantom image is a perceptual phenomenon based on psycho-acoustic principals for detecting directionality of sounds, (sound localization), such as:

• The Head Related Transfer Function, (HRTF): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-related_transfer_function
• The Precedence Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precedence_effect
• The Interaural Time Difference, (IDT), and Interaural Level Difference, (ILD): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_localization
• Physiologic and anatomical structures, such as head size, ear canal spacing, the structural anatomy of the pinna, and reflections from the head, neck and torso, these all influence influence human ability to determine sound directionality.

These criteria are used by the brain to determine the directionality of a single sound in 3D space. But when there are two identical sound sources, and conditions are "just right", the human brain can be fooled into perceiving a sound as originating from a location where there is no sound source, i.e., a "phantom" image. While phantom imaging can indeed work quite well, it only works if specific criteria are met:

• The L/R speakers must be equidistant from the listening position so that the arrival times and levels of the 2 sounds are the same. Processing may be used to affect both arrival times, (Distance Setting), and arrival levels, (Speaker Trim Settings) to compensate for non-equidistant speaker placements, but they need enough granularity to be accurate. 1 foot granularity of Distance settings is not enough, nor is 1 dB granularity of level trims.
• The frequency response of both speakers at the listening position should be as identical as possible. While the two speakers are likely identical, their in-room placements could be very dissimilar. For example, if the left speaker is in a corner but the right speaker is near an opening with only the wall behind it for reinforcement, the two speakers could have wildly different FR's when the sound arrives at the ears. If that's the case, the phantom image will be impaired.
• There is also an inherent notch filter around 2 kHz in a phantom image that will change the apparent timbre of the phantom vs direct sound:
  
  
  
  The bottom trace trace shows a 5 dB notch at about 2 kHz for the phantom center image vs a real speaker at the center position. 5 dB is a noticeable difference so that 5 dB notch will likely be audible.
• But the single most important issue with a phantom CC is the fact that it only works from the one unique listening position where the Levels, Distances and FR's are all identical. i.e., the "sweet spot".
  
  
  
  Sitting outside the sweet spot will cause the phantom image to collapse to the speaker on the closer side. IOW, when sitting off-axis while using a phantom CC in a non-optimized audio system, dialogue and all other center-oriented sounds will be perceived as coming form the speaker on the side the listener is seated.

Using a real CC eliminates the collapse of the phantom image for those listeners outside the sweet spot. It anchors dialogue and other CC-specific sounds to the middle of the sound stage. If one is designing a system, and one cares about the sound perceived by listeners outside the sweet spot, a real CC speaker is the more optimal approach.

That said, there are certainly design compromises in many CC speakers, particularly horizontal CC speakers. Inter-driver interference response results in uneven off-axis frequency response, horizontal axis comb filtering and lobing. These are well-documented phenomena in horizontally aligned driver systems.

For reference, here is a speaker with excellent horizontal dispersion through the entire audible bandwidth:

This speaker has wide dispersion with no constructive/destructive interference, comb filtering or lobing out to at least 35 to 40 degrees across the entire audible bandwidth. IOW, if one sits anywhere within a 35 to 40 degree angle of this speaker, they will hear virtually the same response as if they were sitting directly on-axis.

OTOH, here is a a speaker with horizontally deployed woofers and a central tweeter, (an MTM design):

It has much more narrow dispersion, less than 20 degrees, through much of the midrange, meaning that, if you sit more than 20 degrees off-axis of this speaker, the sound will be quite different than if you sit within the 20 degree "sweet spot". Also note the "lobes" of sound further off axis through the midrange. These will become the reflected sounds off the walls, which will negatively impact sound quality.

Some claim they can't "hear" these phenomena, and therefore they are inconsequential, while others report that they can easily hear these effects. I suspect these differences can be related to the amount of constructive/destructive interference, comb filtering and lobing present, as well the amount of reflected sound present, (reflected sound can sometimes "fill-in" the sound lost due to poor dispersion, making it less audible). However, the other important factor is the pre-existing biases of the listener. With the above Klipsch speaker, anyone sitting 25 to 30 degrees off-axis will be hearing midrange sounds that are 10 to 20 dB lower in volume than the sound on-axis. 10 dB lower is "half as loud' while 20 dB lower is 1/4 as loud. Anyone who can't perceive a halving to quartering of the sound level at midrange frequencies is either not paying attention, has defective hearing or is in denial due to their pre-existing agenda.

One thing a phantom CC can definitely do better than a real CC is to align the phantom image horizontally with the L/R speakers, especially in systems with a solid, flat panel display/television. The phantom image will always be at the same height as the L/R speakers, (assuming the L/R speakers are at the same height). A real CC is often placed below or above the TV taking it out of horizontal alignment with the L/R speakers. This can cause image shifts for sounds that pan through the CC position. A phantom CC will not have this problem. Dialogue will always be at the same height as the L/R speakers and sounds that pan through the front sound-stage will always stay consistent height-wise as they move.

Another thing a phantom CC can often do better than a real CC is timbre-match the L/R speakers. Since the L/R speakers *generate the sounds the brain uses to create the phantom image, the phantom image is, by definition "timbre-matched" to the L/R's. A real CC that is horizontal is not likely to have the same timbre, or sound quality as the vertically aligned L/R's, and some pole find that timbre-mismatch unacceptable, (while other couldn't care less.

Bottom line, using a horizontal CC is not always a good solution and not always "better" than phantom CC, even off-axis. Everything is a compromise, and the decision about which to use is often decided by which is "least worst". So what is the "best" system to use? Well, the one with the least compromises. In that case, the most ideal system uses 3 identical, vertically aligned speakers, placed at the same height, with their acoustic centers at ear height, and with the L/R speakers toe'd-in so they aim at the ears of the primary listener. This provides as identical a frequency response as possible for all 3 front speakers, with identical dispersion patterns, all aligned identically across the front sound-stage. Here is a system I did for a friend with exactly those parameters:

That is 3 identical JBL LSR 306 MKII's across the front, all perfectly aligned, aimed at the ears with tweeters at ear height. The TV may look like it's mounted a little too high, but my friend had recliners which tilted his head back, making the middle of the TV right in his direct line-of-sight. This was actually a 5.2 system with surrounds and 2 Monoprice subwoofers, but it could easily have been a 3.1 or 3.2 system with no surrounds. These speakers are relatively inexpensive at about $150 USD ea. on Amazon. And they measure exceptionally well for such an inexpensive speaker:

JBL 306P MK II Review (Studio Monitor)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the JBL Professional 306P MKII powered speaker. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $149 including Prime shipping from Amazon (each). Naturally the 306p has identical look and feel of the rest of the LSR series: Same as the back...

www.audiosciencereview.com

These speakers are self-powered with on-board amps, so you don't need a high powered receiver... any 5-channel receiver with pre-amp outputs will work. And the synergy between the amps and the drivers means they'll play quite loud being specified at 110 dB max peak SPL, 92 dB continuous.

They also have wide, even dispersion with no constructive/destructive interference, comb filtering or lobing:

There is some narrowing between 1 kHz and 1.1 kHz, which might be somewhat audible off-axis, but nothing like a horizontal MTM speaker. If you're looking for a relatively inexpensive system that hits all the design goals for a front sound-stage, something like these speakers could fit the bill. There are other small bookshelf speakers. both powered and passive that could also work.

Good luck!

Craig

 

if you sound bar has an rca input and your avr has preouts you can use your sound bar as a center channel don't need to buy anything, center channel design is actually horrible for a center channel sound. having driver place horizontally actually gives your bad horizontal dispersion especially at the crossover frequency. if your sound bar has mutiple alternating mids and tweeters it would have better dispersion than a typical center channel.

 

center channel design is actually horrible for a center channel sound. having driver place horizontally actually gives your bad horizontal dispersion especially at the crossover frequency.

Sorry, that's just grossly exaggerated elitist folklore. The so-called "lobing effects" are inaudible/trivial for anyone who isn't obsessively micro-listening FOR them, "professional" reviewers especially.

The key here is NORMAL listening conditions which are in radical contrast to the listening conditions that most reviewers employ when reviewing HT speakers especially center channels.

In other words, the conditions employed by the large majority of REAL WORLD end users:

1. Playing at more typical 60-75db volumes---not ear-bleeding 85-100db.

2. Running the speakers on "Small" with an 80Hz crossover and the subwoofer doing the low frequencies---not full range ("Large") with the subwoofer turned off.

3. Playing (gasp!) actual HT CONTENT---not music, test tones or pink noise.

4. Doing the above while playing ALL speakers at the same time---not the center speaker by itself in 1.0 mode.

5. Watching video content while listening to the speakers---not ignoring the video content in order to focus on ONE speaker while intently listening FOR specific nuances and subtle flaws.

Of course, if reviewers were to observe even ONE of those 5 realistic and typical listening conditions (let alone all 5), they'd have very little to rant or rave about, and be unable to generate sensationalistic clickbait headlines/titles, e.g. "Why Center Speakers Suck!"

As one often-quoted reviewer admits it right here, at the 6:30-7:00 mark

If you want to skip the YT video, here's an annotated transcription:

When I review a speaker, I'm trying to be critical. I start listening for problems. If I don't notice any problems then it's really hard, honestly, to generate content. If all I can say is, 'It sounds good,' that's a two second conversation.