I won't replace my 1080p non Atmos receiver till it dies, (being frugal is how I retired at 51), but when the time comes for an Atmos AVR I'm likely going to do Atmos with modules because even though in ceilings are clearly preferred I'm not inclined to spend the time/effort to pull of in ceilings as I'm actually perfectly happy with 5.1.

I likely won't even use "modules" but rather regular bookshelves like Q Acoustics 2010s/2020s on angled mounts or some such.

I'd mount the speaker aiming up at the ceiling directly behind my towers.

Modules on top of the towers the cats would simply knock off.

Also, that way if it doesn't really work out I'll just give the Q Aoustics to one of my nieces as an upgrade to their Vinyl setups.

 

another expense would be the receiver since there is typically about a $500 or $600 price jump from a 7 channel receiver to an equivalent 9 channel receiver needed to do 5.2.4. While I do think Atmos is worth the expense, I would only add in ceilings if the right opportunity presented itself. As someone who has fished wire for zone 2 Speakers I can't say I wouldn't but to this day I haven't felt the need to do so yet.

 

Height speakers work well too...so if your room will allow it, four heights pointing down to MLP at 45 degrees or so works. I've got two rear "heights" and two middle in-ceiling for my ATMOS setup. Works great.

After reviewing the technical info on what is being done with the up-firing, and their limitations given real world psycho-acoustics, I wouldn't use them myself.

 

I would go with height speakers before bouncing.....

 

They also tend to indicate that a 5.1.4 system kicks the crap out of a 5.1.2 system.

If you: (1) have the space/room to properly place 5 ear level speakers and 4 overhead speakers; and (2) have the budget for decent l/c/r and sub to go along with decent surround and overhead speakers, my recommendation is bite the bullet and get 5.1.4.

In my living room I am personally running: 3 Sierra-2 bookshelfs for L/C/R, 1 FV15HP Rythmik sub, and 6 Canton 880 in ceilings for surround and overhead duty in an acoustically challenged, untreated room (glass windows to the left and hardwoods everywhere) and it still sounds fantastic. The set up really exceeded my expectations, especially when a true (not just unmixed) Atmos track is running.

 

Where did you put your surrounds? Do you have in-ceilings mounted in the wall to the side or rear of MLP, or just overhead and behind MLP?

 

I would look at this video first:

 

A couple things that go unnoticed at first in that vid........


One is the room size and second is the speaker placement.

I have no doubt in that room it sounds good, maybe better than on/in ceiling speakers. But that room size, speaker locations and seating position rule out over 90% of the rooms out there.


The seating position is almost center of the room, which is fine for the Atmos effect, not soo good for all other aspects of sound reproduction. The rear surrounds are way back behind the seating position in locations not available in many rooms.


I wonder how his opinion would change doing .2 Atmos, instead of .4 and in a real room scenario where the couch is backed up to a wall giving less than stellar angles of bounce.


I am all for ANY alternative that allows Atmos use, but that room is not typical of most rooms and the ceiling being ideal is at least mentioned/shown as that is also a critical element. If you have the right ceiling, the right room sizing and can not do in/on ceilings by all means go with the reflecting speakers.


Also notice those speakers had a fixed angle driver on top........move the speakers or the seating position a couple of feet and you are out of that reflectivity area and the bubble will sound lop sided and funny.


Just make sure you have everything required to bounce Atmos before giving it a try.


Under favorable/ideal circumstances I am sure it works well or maybe better when taking into account real world issues people have in their rooms.........it is certainly less likely to end in divorce......

If your room meets the conditions to use Atmos enabled, by all means have at it !

One thing I really liked seeing him mention was the need for full range speakers in all locations and touched on the redirected bass from even the Atmos enabled channel ........for movies, I am full believer in it is compromise to not have large full range speakers in each location. Which I will be correcting in my next iteration of upgrades with 15 inch drivers in all locations.

 

Pic three is sideways; it is to the side of the windows and mid wall, not under the windows.

 

I've got a 12'x13' living room with flat 8ft high ceilings and the upfiring Atmos bounce speakers work very well for me. I think the effectiveness of the reflected Atmos speakers depends a lot on your room and seating position. For me, using the reflected speakers made a lot more sense on my budget ($2K for everything) and the effects are definitely noticeable despite only having 5.1.2. Plus I might move soon so it didn't make sense to spend a bunch of money installing permanent speakers in my ceiling. In-ceiling speakers will generally be better, but whether or not it is worth it really depends on your budget, how much effort you are willing to put in, and how long you plan to be living in your current home.

 

What kind of speakers did you use and how did you mount them?

 

So most of the articles I've read recommend in-ceiling speakers for the very best Atmos experience. This makes some sense mechanically. They also tend to indicate that a 5.1.4 system kicks the crap out of a 5.1.2 system.

But, for a typical home living room setup with a small to medium sized room, is the effort and cost to install built-in speakers and fish the wiring really worth the incremental benefit? Are you better off spending that money on higher-end floorstanding speakers with upfiring speakers? I figure it's ~$500 in labor to install in-ceiling speakers and ~$500 for 4 solid architectural speakers. For that $1000 you can upgrade your LCR to something pretty kickass.

What's the better use of money and effort?

If you can do 5.1.4 vs 5.1.2, do so - this will allow you to experience front to back panning effects much more effectively. Definitely adds to the experience and the overall intent of the immersive bubble. That said, 5.1.2 is better than 5.1.0. Also, do yourself a favor and seriously consider a second sub for that 5.2.4......

Is it worth it? In my opinion, HELLS YES. You do not need to spend tons of money on the speakers. $500.00 is a good budget, you could even do it for less and still get good SQ. If you are at all handy, you can certainly save the labor costs. I did mine myself, wasn't challenging technically, more challenging crawling around an attic and fussing with fiberglass and such. BUT - it was fun and educational. At least that's what I tell myself.

Sure, you could spend the $1000.00 to upgrade L/C/R, those are obviously the most important pieces of the puzzle - but not matter how good they are, you will not have the Atmos effect. Depends on your priorities.

I've read upfiring can be problematic in a space with anything but a flat ceiling, but I'm curious what else you are afraid of.

Be sure to visit the dedicated thread to upfiring modules, do some more reading on it. I myself prefer in-ceiling, but this will be best if you have at least an 8 foot ceiling or higher, proper (enough) placement, and wide enough dispersion. Think this through though - once they're in, they're in and having to undo them to relocate, etc., might be a downer. Makes it more challenging to reconfigure a space should you ever need to, especially in regard to seating locations. If you rent, might have to do some repair work before your departure. And so on.

But yes, with the upfiring modules you do want a flat, reflective ceiling (none of that popcorn jazz!), but so long as you can get the proper placement, a lot of folks here have pretty good luck with them. No way I could properly place rear modules in my arrangement, and I did not want to do any sort of hybrid arrangement, so I went all in-ceiling and it is pretty sweet.

 

Option A) ceiling speakers (best option)

option B) Elevation speakers mounted high on the wall/cieling joint down down firing towards the listener

Option C) reflection, i would skip this option




SVS prime elevation, Kef Q50a, R50a, and Klipsch have been recently released speakers that can be wall mounted near the ceiling with the purpose of downfiring towards the listener.

 

Can the Kef Q50a be used high on the wall as a surround speaker the same way the SVS elevation can? I have them now on top of my R500 as Atmos but I'm leaning towards in ceiling speakers for Atmos and repurposing the Kef Q50's for surrounds.

 

imo option B doesn't get recommended enough

 

Gorman, MLP = Master Listening Position. Normally you'd select that (or multiples) to do your audio testing/calibration.

A few pieces of plywood is all you need to aim those. Essentially a ramp that your speaker is secured to. Those mounts you linked would likely work well too..just make sure 15 degrees down tilt is enough..

Macgallant, yep. I have two Paradigms in-ceiling, and this setup using Paradigms Atoms for rear heights. It's a very low ceiling at 80" or so. Eventually the mess will be hidden in columns..still tweaking placement.

 

Dolby Atmos versus the other speaker choices

I started out with (4) Elac Dolby Atmos speakers in a 7.2.4 arrangement. The results were rather disappointing. My ceiling has the sprayed on (popcorn) texturing which deadens sound rather then reflecting it. It wasn't a complete loss because I was able to use the Elac's in my other systems (two 7.1.2 setups in other rooms). They sound pretty good in the other rooms which don't have the acoustic spray treatment on the ceiling. My plan was to go with the SVS elevation speakers but I didn't have the money to pay cash for them. So as a stopgap measure I purchased (4) Dayton Audio indoor/outdoor speakers to mount as elevation ones. They have worked out real well. The difference in sound is amazing. I would highly recommend the use of elevation speakers over the ceiling bouncers any day. With my tax refund (over-payment) I still plan on getting the SVS's soon.

 

I started out with (4) Elac Dolby Atmos speakers in a 7.2.4 arrangement. The results were rather disappointing. My ceiling has the sprayed on (popcorn) texturing which deadens sound rather then reflecting it. It wasn't a complete loss because I was able to use the Elac's in my other systems (two 7.1.2 setups in other rooms). They sound pretty good in the other rooms which don't have the acoustic spray treatment on the ceiling. My plan was to go with the SVS elevation speakers but I didn't have the money to pay cash for them. So as a stopgap measure I purchased (4) Dayton Audio indoor/outdoor speakers to mount as elevation ones. They have worked out real well. The difference in sound is amazing. I would highly recommend the use of elevation speakers over the ceiling bouncers any day. With my tax refund (over-payment) I still plan on getting the SVS's soon.

If you don't mind wires, those can be mounted farther out on the ceiling in regular over head Atmos positions, some people like on ceilings, rather than in ceiling.

On ceiling allows you to aim the speakers compensating for low ceilings, which all standard 8 foot ceilings are considered low for Atmos, it reduces the installation hassles and allows you to move them around some to get a ideal position.....only downside is wires.....which can be dealt with in a unlimited amount of ways. From simply tacking em up to the most elaborate trim/coverings imaginable.

 

for the height speakers, can you also do regular bookshelfs [small ones, like for surrounds] and use speaker mounts to angle them towards the listening position? seems that's a cheaper option compared to some Elevation speakers.

 

Take a look at Dr. Floyd Toole's home theater here:https://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-s...5137-official-jbl-synthesis-pro-revel-home-theater-thread-111.html#post57740690


I would use in ceiling or on wall near ceiling speakers before considering upfiring Atmos options.

 

From the Dolby Atmos website. I think the makers know better than a random guy who still lives in her mom's basement. Seriously guys, there is not debate, you can't go against the makers of the technology....

"Will I always get better Dolby Atmos sound with overhead speakers?
Dolby Atmos enabled speakers produce slightly diffuse overhead audio that is quite lifelike and, in some cases, preferable to the sound that comes from overhead speakers."
"Audio experts agree that the overhead layer of sound produced by Dolby Atmos enabled speakers can be preferable to the sound originating from overhead speakers."
"Dolby Atmos enabled speakers do not rely on virtualized processing. That means you don’t have to sit in a specific spot to get the full Dolby Atmos effect."
"Based on an understanding of how the brain interprets sound, Dolby Atmos enabled speakers modify select audio frequencies to reinforce the sense of sound coming from above. This filtering is also applied to any sound that may leak horizontally from the speaker cabinet to further amplify the perception of sound coming from above."

So basically, unless you have incredibly tall ceilings like in theaters, you're not only wasting your money in overhead speakers, but getting worse results.
A tilted speaker, is not a Dolby Atmos enabled speaker either as many said. You want Atmos at home, get a Dolby Atmos enabled speaker.
You and your huge massive subwoofer, receiver and speakers are getting worse sound for movies with your 10 feet ceiling, than the guy that buys a Vizio 5.1.4 soundbar. Hard to digest, but the true. Bigger is not better, speakers are speakers, for decades the same technology, surround-sound processing matters. You can get way better sound from a particular surround-sound processing code, than from expending thousands in useless over-sized speakers.
Of course, hi-fi dinosaurs freaks would tell you the opposite, because they paid thousands for their crappy set up, good for music only....
Most of you are watching movies in small rooms, stop wasting your money...

 

From the Dolby Atmos website. I think the makers know better than a random guy who still lives in her mom's basement. Seriously guys, there is not debate, you can't go against the makers of the technology....

I don't live in my mom's basement. Grew up in a house without a basement... So I guess that puts me at a slight advantage...?

"Will I always get better Dolby Atmos sound with overhead speakers?

Dolby Atmos enabled speakers produce slightly diffuse overhead audio that is quite lifelike and, in some cases, preferable to the sound that comes from overhead speakers."

"Audio experts agree that the overhead layer of sound produced by Dolby Atmos enabled speakers can be preferable to the sound originating from overhead speakers."

(Emphasis above mine.) Always and Some / Can and Is - pretty significant differences. My interpretation of those statements is that bouncing speakers will less often deliver a preferable experience than overheads, but anything is possible and you are free to make your own interpretations of course...

Also, from the Dolby site: "Ceiling speakers and Dolby Atmos enabled speakers (or modules) deliver equivalent performance." So, it would seem Dolby might be somewhat contradicting itself...hmmm...

"Dolby Atmos enabled speakers do not rely on virtualized processing. That means you don’t have to sit in a specific spot to get the full Dolby Atmos effect."
"Based on an understanding of how the brain interprets sound, Dolby Atmos enabled speakers modify select audio frequencies to reinforce the sense of sound coming from above. This filtering is also applied to any sound that may leak horizontally from the speaker cabinet to further amplify the perception of sound coming from above."

You can't simply place a DAE speaker anywhere in a room and have it work properly and you do have to have the appropriate surfaces (ceiling), and circumstances for this to be successful, as many here will attest. Ceilings speakers of course have their own drawbacks, nobody will argue that, but that is largely a cost/architecture issue, not performance. DAEs can compensate for that, but aren't a magic bullet either for a sub-optimal space.

So basically, unless you have incredibly tall ceilings like in theaters, you're not only wasting your money in overhead speakers, but getting worse results.
A tilted speaker, is not a Dolby Atmos enabled speaker either as many said. You want Atmos at home, get a Dolby Atmos enabled speaker.

Sure, a simply tilted speaker may not be a Dolby Atmos Enabled speaker, does not mean it's automatically bad or won't work. But I do wonder how those specifically Dolby Atmos Enabled speakers work with other immersive formats as compared to in-ceilings? Dunno, maybe they're awesome and work exactly the same.... But it seems like they are engineered, well, for Dolby Atmos, not DTS:X or Auro 3D whereas a ceiling speaker might be more generic and work better?

You and your huge massive subwoofer, receiver and speakers are getting worse sound for movies with your 10 feet ceiling, than the guy that buys a Vizio 5.1.4 soundbar. Hard to digest, but the true.

How do prove such a thing? I only have 8ft. ceilings, but I'm going to argue that I'm getting better than a soundbar.... Soundbars, while improving, are in my opinion work-arounds for those that can not or do not want to afford, or perhaps lack the space or motivation to install, larger systems. Maybe they are the best kept secret since, well, dunno....lemme guess, you're one of the soundbar guys!? I'd certainly take one given no other option, but not my first choice.

Bigger is not better, speakers are speakers, for decades the same technology, surround-sound processing matters. You can get way better sound from a particular surround-sound processing code, than from expending thousands in useless over-sized speakers.

There might be over-sized, but there are also right-sized, and undersized drivers/speakers. Yes - bigger can be better (especially in the case of subwoofers), and maybe smaller can be better too. You analyze the space vs. preferences and limitations of course to address this. Physics is still physics and any design must adhere to those laws to define its capabilities within a given space.

Of course, hi-fi dinosaurs freaks would tell you the opposite, because they paid thousands for their crappy set up, good for music only....
Most of you are watching movies in small rooms, stop wasting your money...

Of course, you might not need to spend a fortune to get a good experience. And while I'm no hi-fi dinosaur or audiophile, I did pay thousands for what I would call a good set up. Trust me - it's a pretty good set up for music and home theater. (well, living room entertainment, I don't have a dedicated theater room...) Sure, DAE speakers can work, and might be better than nothing, but I don't think you're convincing anybody that they are superior. Lotta pretty experienced people here that are simply going to disagree - people with incredible set ups, knowledge, and experience beyond my wildest dreams. I've gotta give the nod to them. They may not be "watching movies in small rooms", but that does not mean their experiences and knowledge can't be applied to lesser spaces.

 

Haha you were awesome @Jonas2
Anyway, I did so much testing in my life. Spent lots of money. I just had to get it out.
I got the SB46514-F6 and that thing is incredible in my 15x15 room. Lots of issues, but I am very resourceful.
There are lots of people with good ideas, like you, but there are so many freaks too.
At the time I got a couple of bookshelves speakers, spent 1K on them, just because some people on the internet were defending that those speakers will sound better than a soundbar for movies... I guess it depends of how good the soundbar is. So yeah I don't have much room and I thought let's give a try. Lots of power, nice sound quality, but there is no subwoofer, no surround, connected with the optical cable to the TV... They really sucked for movies.
I was getting true hd at first, because I didn't knew how to configure my PC, and what a difference when atmos was finally activated. These speakers from this soundbar are good, nothing special, but when you get that incredible amount of sound data... I am just extremely shocked on how good and immersive atmos is. I had surround systems in the past, much more expensive than this vizio soundbar, and this is just so good. Again atmos is incredible. If someone didn't tried yet, they don't know what they're missing. Not only because the immersive part, but the sound quality increases a lot vs true HD, and I say this because again, there are a bunch of freaks telling people that there is no difference between true hd and atmos....
By the way, ironically, music sounds much better with this soundbar than with the speakers that replaces....
So that's why I say, and I mean it, that the source of audio is way way way more important than the quality of the speakers. But of course, the freaks would tell you the opposite... I learned the hard way, blowing money hehe...

 

Any thoughts / experience with a combo of front direct in ceiling atmos speakers and rear upfiring combo atmos speakers?

 

No direct experience with that setup, but I have read that upfiring from behind is not as good, which could be related to how people don't hear things as well coming from behind them, etc. but not sure. You could always just try it and see if it works for you. If that doesn't work, you could just throw up some side or rear height speakers and go from there (or add a 2nd pair of in ceiling).

 

I have my Klipsch Atmos speakers high on the wall, both front and back with the tweeter pointed directly at MLP, and sounds great, also according to my Marantz SR 7015 , it also gives you the option of DTSX and AURO 3-D, so it makes it more versatile as well