If we thought LLDV would spark some crazy discussions.....

 

it wont be demonstrated at CEDIA 2024......that is a mistake.

 

Are you sure? The press release is saying it'll be in Sound Room 4 and booth 4409.

 

Interesting development.

 

I wonder if the HDMI boards will be still replaceable ( I need one 9G board). 2 outputs is not enough in my setup.

 

Any motion AI feature to compete with MADVR?

 

No cos NO FILM MAKER wants that or will use that. Its pointless as the power needed to do a half decent job the unit would cost over $50,000 and as soon as you mention the word Motion Interpolation you get something heavy thrown at you that hurts by the filmmaker. Did you guys not see Tom Cruise public address that please don't watch my film with any of that turned on. We even had Film Maker mode created for TVs to simpllfy lt for people. Believe you me I have the dents in the head to prove it. What I suggest is getting a display or projector with good motion rather than wasting time and money trying to fix a bad display with Motion Interpolation. There endeth the lesson! LoL

 

What an absolute pleasure it is to see a product that is designed and engineered 100% in house with no compromises being made on components !!! Congratulations @jrp

 

I can’t wait to hear Jim discuss why he has changed his thinking on 8k for home cinema.

 

My guess would be something as simple as his preferred HDMI chipset provider saying that the next batch of chips they are going to produce support 8K by default, and there isn’t really a next-gen 4K only replacement.

 

Checkmate

 

😁

 

T hope the Artisan goes beyond 21 point grayscale.

 

@Johnnyfocal could you please indulge me with a question on 8K Content?

Very basic research suggests that 35mm Film, is equivalent to 5.5k
Although only typical of older films and reasonably rare, 70mm Film, is equivalent to 18k
The Digital Cameras used in modern film-making are also 5.5k, apart from IMAX, that can be 8k or 12k?

So unless someone goes around restoring 70mm film, if they can be found, we'll never see older movies in 8k native.
None of the movies filmed digitally will be seen in 8k native
Only IMAX cameras are currently capable of filming native 8k? And costs are already largely prohibitive, which is why we see IMAX used only on max-budget blockbusters, and then only for parts of some of those movies. TV production can barely afford 4K as a standard now, let alone 8K.

So where does that leave us in terms of 8K content? Is production readying for it at all?

 

Many factors influence resolution. The most important is the lens used. No we are not looking at delivering 8K at any point soon. Also resolution of film negatives vs the resolution of film prints is very different. The recent Olympics was all shot in 8K recently, but no one other than China showed it in 8K. We have looked at it played around with it and made plans if we ever have to by doing tests etc.

Now 8K output is different. Both IMAX Digital GT and Twin Dolby Cinema are all pseudo 8K as they are two projectors lined with a half-pixel horizontal and vertical offset. The image is interwoven and scaled to 8K. This on a very big screen means you have a non-visible pixel structure unless you stand with you face on the screen. In the home you have a few pseudo 8K projectors and BARCO have 5K 235 projectors that can now be directly pixel-mapped. 8K TVs seem to be dying as I don't think anyone launched a new model this year.

On the input side you have you are really looking at the 4K 120hz for gaming as the reason you would have a HDMI input plus its nice to be balanced 8K in 8K out.

We might not be doing post at 8K but a few years back a few of the guys who work with me did the Fast and the Furious ride at Universal now that was all posted at 27K. On set we use the video wall system we call the Volume made famous on shows like The Mandalorian etc and that is regularly pushlng over 32K. We have being making background digital plates at over 20K for years now.

Also, don't get hooked on numbers as with film it has a natural dither that will give you a perceptually higher resolution than if you just try work out how many pixels it has. (engineer always speak in absolutes and make proclamations that this is all you will ever need and they are always wrong) 35MM film we scan at 8K as that will give us the best 4K. 70mm you should be scanning it 16K or higher to get a good 8K master and IMAX in tests you really should scan at 24K to get a good 12K master. Now the issue is at the moment, commercial scanners only go up to 13.5K Director 8mm to 70mm Motion Picture Film Scanner (lasergraphics.com). The dither is the key; if you do dither, correctly, you can get away with all sorts regarding resolution and bit depth. A guy called Dr Mike Boudry taught me that the guy who set up the Computer FIlm Company and was a pioneer and also a genius.

Dither is the key to successful motion pictures. You cant really use dither in a static picture in the same way, saying that the print industry has being using it for hundreds of years. Thats how a newspaper picture used to work. Static images and motion picture images are not the same. Still images are useful for a quick cursory evaluation but nothing more as you need to see the sequence in motion at an effective viewing distance. If you look at classic paintings up close the illusion falls apart. I leanrt years ago from Kodak that still images and motion picture images are not the same. If you printed up a still frame from a 35mm movie film you would be disappointed but on-screen in-motion its something else. This is turning into an image science class I do so I will stop! 😎

Now bit depth is more important and film has a massive bit depth combined with its natural dither gives you an almost perfect image that will fool the eye to thinking it is almost infinite. As I keep saying its all an illusion!
.

 

@Johnnyfocal thanks for the detailed response.

 

Wondering if the new FPGA would be powerful enough to add geometry correction?

 

My question as well. I have a short throw with an anamorphic lens. This is the only reason I went with Envy…..for now.

 

I'm not sure if it's ok to post links to YouTube videos or not but if it's not allowed Mods please delete.
A informative discussion featuring two all-stars in the Lumagen realm was posted recently. Thought some of you would like to view it.

 

This is nice to see. I am curious for the timeline for this to be available in the marketplace.

 

Picked this up at CEDIA.

 

I have a question for Lumagen, will the ArtisaN support 8K DSC input? eg. 4:4:4 12 bit at 8k60, or RGB 12 bit at 8k60?

Most recent 8K devices (like JVC projectors) support DSC and PCs can output DSC too. It's also likely that the recently announced PS5 Pro will do 8K via DSC.

 

Thats a format for gaming and might be possible. At the moment, no, but I will talk to Jim and see if it can be implemented. It would need to be uncompressed in the ArtisaN and then recompressed in DSC on the output. Its part of the HDMI spec Its feasible as the internal processing is 8K 444 12Bit. DSC is only 422/420 so its very bandwidth friendly and its unpacked as 444. DSC would wind up the Pixel Peepers as its only visually Lossless not mathematically Lossless. HDMI 2.1, which can use DSC 1.2, is also capable of 8K up to 120 Hz with HDR. So, never say never!

 

Forgive me if I have missed this, but will the ArtisaN support IP control? And will updates be still via the serial port?

 

Both are in development (IP and Online update as the two go hand in hand) for the ArtisaN.

 

While i get why folk want IP control i'd comment that it is not as robust as serial control. Only yesterday i was on site and the dealer had to disable IP control on the audio processor and redo it as rs232 as the control processor would regularly fail to connect to the audio processor on the network. Obviously useful for online updating though and remote debugging though

 

All dependent on the implementation of the IP control in the device. My (older) Anthem AVM60 is very flakey in terms of input selection, though rock solid for power on/off. My Kaleidescape IP control is flawless. If implemented correctly I would consider IP to be just as reliable as serial control.

 

haha....it was an AVM60. Said it was on network but it wasn't. Keeps happening it seems.

 

That's the one.

 

I'm holding off for 16K. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I believe most cable is still slogging around at 720p and 1080i. Of course, there are occasional broadcasts in 4K, albeit faux 4K many times. Streamers in luck with better resolution. I guess the 8K market is big enough to support this model's introduction?

 

DSC is only 422/420

DSC works with any color model as input.

• RGB
• YCbCr 4:4:4
• YCbCr 4:2:2
• YCbCr 4:2:0

I once covered the topic of DSC in the PC section of AVSForum.

its unpacked as 444.

Not in case of Native 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 coding.
Background: Compression: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly


8K @ 60 Hz video content for playback is usually provided with these parameters.

​

color model	chroma subsampling	bits per color component (bpc)	bandwidth need for CTA-861 video timing
YCbCr​	4:2:0​	10-bit​	40 Gbps​

​

You don't need Display Stream Compression (DSC) for that if you use HDMI 2.1 chips with Fixed Rate Link (FRL).

FPGA = Field Programmable Gate Array
RX = HDMI Crosspoint Transceiver (Input Management)
TX = HDMI Transmitter (Output)

My personal assessment for the ArtisaN:

RX:

Panasonic semiconductor business was sold to Nuvoton on September 1st, 2020. Because Jim posted here that Panasonic (now Nuvoton) only delivers if they can sell in large quantities, the HDMI 2.1 AVR chip KM864807 was probably ruled out. It is implemented in all current 8K AVRs and also supports DSC pass-through.

Because Lattice Semiconductor does not have an HDMI 2.1 video solution in this form and Jim already had relationships with Analog Devices, I believe that these chips could be used as transceivers in the ArtisaN:

Analog Devices ADV7674 (48 Gbps, DSC 1.2a data pass-through)
Analog Devices ADV7672 (40 Gbps, DSC 1.2a data pass-through)

FPGA:

We buy faster "speed graded" versions of the Intel Stratix FPGAs

Intel’s 8K solution: HDMI Intel FPGA IP Core

Intel also offers DSC encoders and decoders:
Display Stream Compression (DSC) 1.2b Decoder IP Core for Intel FPGAs
Display Stream Compression (DSC) 1.2b Encoder IP Core for Intel FPGAs

DSC would wind up the Pixel Peepers as its only visually Lossless not mathematically Lossless.

If you can enable the ArtisaN to do DSC processing, you can already send the following signal with an Nvidia graphics card:

The source here was a low-profile Nvidia RTX A2000 with the protocol converter cable Club 3D CAC-1187 (mini DisplayPort HBR3 > HDMI 2.1 FRL) featuring the Synaptics VMM7100 (Spyder). Please note: Windows on the left shows the color depth output as 12-bit (bits per color = BPC), HDfury VRROOM (Nuvoton KM864807) on the right shows DSC as 8-bit (bits per pixel = BPP). That's fine.

And this is the result on JVC DLA-NZ8:

​

color model	chroma subsampling	bits per color component (bpc)	bandwidth need for CTA-861 video timing	bandwidth need DSC 3:1
RGB​	none​	12-bit​	96.23 Gbps​	32 Gbps​

DSC uses the YCoCg color model if input is RGB. Contrary to YCbCr, YCoCg enables RGB reversibility. With appropriate source material, this transmission is clearly superior to chroma subsampling. It would be very desirable if the ArtisaN supported this.

HDMI 2.1 Bandwidth Calculator

 

DSC works with any color model as input.

• RGB
• YCbCr 4:4:4
• YCbCr 4:2:2
• YCbCr 4:2:0

I once covered the topic of DSC in the PC section of AVSForum.



Not in case of Native 4:2:0 and 4:2:2 coding.
Background: Compression: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly


8K @ 60 Hz video content for playback is usually provided with these parameters.

​

color model	chroma subsampling	bits per color component (bpc)	bandwidth need for CTA-861 video timing
YCbCr​	4:2:0​	10-bit​	40 Gbps​

​

You don't need Display Stream Compression (DSC) for that if you use HDMI 2.1 chips with Fixed Rate Link (FRL).


View attachment 3664856

FPGA = Field Programmable Gate Array
RX = HDMI Crosspoint Transceiver (Input Management)
TX = HDMI Transmitter (Output)

My personal assessment for the ArtisaN:

RX:

Panasonic semiconductor business was sold to Nuvoton on September 1st, 2020. Because Jim posted here that Panasonic (now Nuvoton) only delivers if they can sell in large quantities, the HDMI 2.1 AVR chip KM864807 was probably ruled out. It is implemented in all current 8K AVRs and also supports DSC pass-through.

Because Lattice Semiconductor does not have an HDMI 2.1 video solution in this form and Jim already had relationships with Analog Devices, I believe that these chips could be used as transceivers in the ArtisaN:

Analog Devices ADV7674 (48 Gbps, DSC 1.2a data pass-through)
Analog Devices ADV7672 (40 Gbps, DSC 1.2a data pass-through)

View attachment 3664858

FPGA:



Intel’s 8K solution: HDMI Intel FPGA IP Core

Intel also offers DSC encoders and decoders:
Display Stream Compression (DSC) 1.2b Decoder IP Core for Intel FPGAs
Display Stream Compression (DSC) 1.2b Encoder IP Core for Intel FPGAs



If you can enable the ArtisaN to do DSC processing, you can already send the following signal with an Nvidia graphics card:

View attachment 3664861

The source here was a low-profile Nvidia RTX A2000 with the protocol converter cable Club 3D CAC-1187 (mini DisplayPort HBR3 > HDMI 2.1 FRL) featuring the Synaptics VMM7100 (Spyder). Please note: Windows on the left shows the color depth output as 12-bit (bits per color = BPC), HDfury VRROOM (Nuvoton KM864807) on the right shows DSC as 8-bit (bits per pixel = BPP). That's fine.

And this is the result on JVC DLA-NZ8:

View attachment 3664862 View attachment 3664864

​

color model	chroma subsampling	bits per color component (bpc)	bandwidth need for CTA-861 video timing	bandwidth need DSC 3:1
RGB​	none​	12-bit​	96.23 Gbps​	32 Gbps​

DSC uses the YCoCg color model if input is RGB. Contrary to YCbCr, YCoCg enables RGB reversibility. With appropriate source material, this transmission is clearly superior to chroma subsampling. It would be very desirable if the ArtisaN supported this.

HDMI 2.1 Bandwidth Calculator

You ever thought of been an industrial spy? Good work might be right might be wrong.

 

Kris appearing on Shane Lee's live stream discussing Lumagen including the new Artisan model & also the new projectors introduced at CEDIA.

 

Will the artisan be able to output 8k only to 7680p or 8120 for the JVCs to use their full panel?

 

Not sure on this, but I do not believe the JVCs will take a 8120 signal in anyways.

 

Yes, HDMI is data transport. But there is still a standard that this data transport must follow to ensure interoperability between devices. For the question asked, this means:

(A) 4096 × 2160
(B) 8192 × 4320

(A) = resolution that the JVC D-ILA projection chip has natively. Also known as DCI 4K.
DCI = Digital Cinema Initiatives, a consortium of major motion picture studios that defined this as their 4K specification for cinemas (@24 frames, aspect ratio 256∶135 ~ 17:9).

(B) = 2 x A, which is made possible by the e-shift 8K technology in some JVC projectors (NZ900, NZ800, NZ9, NZ8, NZ7, RS4100, RS3100, RS2100).

The Consumer Technology Association (CTA) is responsible for defining the HDMI parameters in consumer electronics. The most recent version of the ANSI/CTA Standard is CTA-861-I, published in February 2023. It combines the previous version, CTA-861-H from January 2021 with the amendment CTA-861.6, published in February 2022.

This document states on page 41:

VIC = Video Identification Code. In consumer electronics, every resolution @ refresh rate has such a number.

"H_active" of 8192 does not appear in this document, is therefore by definition not yet provided in the HDMI standard and therefore not possible.

Sink devices like projectors send via a simple data channel (DDC = Display Data Channel) over the HDMI cable what the source device is allowed to output. This data is called Extended Display Identification Data (EDID). The JVC DLA-NZ8 reports that it also accepts the PC standard VESA Coordinated Video Timing - Reduced Blanking (CVT-RB) for 2560 × 1440 @ 120 Hz. I therefore tested with the above mentioned Nvidia RTX A2000 and the Nvidia GeForce RTX 3050 whether an output of H_active = 8192 via CVT-RB is possible with a PC graphics card. The answer is: No, the Nvidia graphics driver does currently not support anything higher than 7680.

The JVC DLA-NZ8 also sends the following within its EDID. “TV resolutions” are defined by VICs.

So you don't have to worry about 8192. Compared to the CTA-861 video timing via HDMI commonly used in current devices, there is a new version, the so-called Optimized Video Timing (OVT). You can find a calculator here. This standard is now being implemented in future devices. But 8192 does not appear there either.

 

So, to answer my point thats a NO then! Its a game!

 

In the latest video with Jim, the inevitable question is asked again when it comes to HDMI 2.1.

"The HDMI inputs, are they 40 Gig or are they 48 ?"
Jim answers: "It's gonna be 40 Gig"

I would like to give my personal assessment on this and also provide a technical explanation.

On the chip market, there is no crosspoint transceiver with 48 Gbps suitable for intermediate devices. And it doesn't matter. More is better? Not true. More Gbps does not automatically equal more quality or features. You can imagine it like driving a car on the German Autobahn. If you drive at 200 kilometers per hour (~125 mph), you still have everything under control. At speeds of 250 kilometers per hour (~155 mph, which is when most engine control units' speed limiter takes action) it becomes very strenuous because there are still others on the public highway. At the end of the journey you notice that although you are not really getting to your destination any faster, you are sweating a lot more and, above all, you are running out of fuel quicker.

The more Gbps that have to be transmitted, the more likely it is that there will be problems in practice due to signal integrity, especially with an intermediate device such as the ArtisaN. Please see my overview to get an impression for the physical limits of cables.

How much bandwidth is needed to transmit a video signal depends on these factors:

• Resolution
• Refresh Rate
• Color Model
• Color Depth (bits per color component = BPC)
• Video Timing

Below is a list of what I consider to be relevant HDMI 2.1 use cases and the bandwidth required for them. From this we can see that 40 vs. 48 Gbps is not a qualifying factor:

#	Use Case	Resolution	Refresh Rate [Hz]	Color Model	Chroma Subsampling	Bit Depth [BPC]	Video Timing	Display Stream Compression (DSC)	HDMI 2.0 TMDS Clock Frequency	HDMI 2.1 Fixed Rate Link	Bandwidth Need [Gbps]
1​	4K HDR movie	4K​	24 [1]​	YCbCr​	none (4:4:4)​	10- / 12-bit​	CTA-861​	-​	371 / 445 MHz​	-​	11.14 / 13.35 Gbps​
2​	4K Dolby Vision movie [2]	4K​	24​	(RGB)​	none​	(8-bit)​	CTA-861​	-​	297 MHz​	-​	9 Gbps​
3​	4K LLDV movie	4K​	24​	YCbCr​	4:2:2​	12-bit [3]​	CTA-861​	-​	297 MHz​	-​	9 Gbps​
5​	4K HDR	4K​	60​	YCbCr​	4:2:0​	10-bit​	CTA-861​	-​	371 MHz​	-​	11.14 Gbps​
6​	4K LLDV	4K​	60​	YCbCr​	4:2:2​	12-bit [3]​	CTA-861​	-​	594 MHz​	-​	18 Gbps​
7​	4K120 HDR	4K​	120​	RGB​	none​	10-bit​	CTA-861​	-​	​	5​	40 Gbps​
8​	4K120 LLDV	4K​	120​	YCbCr​	4:2:2​	12-bit [3]​	CTA-861​	-​	​	4​	32 Gbps​
9​	4K144 HDR	4K​	144​	RGB​	none​	10-bit​	CVT-RB [4]​	2:1​	​	3​	24 Gbps​
10​	4K240 HDR	4K​	240​	RGB​	none​	10-bit​	CVT-RB [4]​	2:1 / 3:1​	​	5 / 4​	40 / 32 Gbps​
12​	8K HDR movie	8K​	24​	YCbCr​	4:2:0​	10- / 12-bit​	CTA-861​	-​	​	3​	24 Gbps​
13​	8K LLDV movie	8K​	24​	YCbCr​	4:2:2​	12-bit [3]​	CTA-861​	-​	​	4​	32 Gbps​
14​	8K60 HDR	8K​	60​	YCbCr​	4:2:0​	10-bit​	CTA-861​	-​	​	5​	40 Gbps​
15​	8K60 LLDV	8K​	60​	YCbCr​	4:2:2​	12-bit [3]​	CTA-861​	2:1​	​	4​	32 Gbps​
16​	8K60 RGB HDR	8K​	60​	RGB​	none​	10-bit​	CTA-861​	2:1​	​	5​	40 Gbps​
17​	8K120	8K​	120​	YCbCr​	4:2:2​	10-bit​	CTA-861​	3:1​	​	5​	40 Gbps​

[1] 24 Hz and 23.976 Hz are equivalent (factor 1000/1001, an NTSC relic of analogue television)

[2] Dolby Vision end-to-end transmission with decoding in the display device is transmitted in an 8-bit RGB container.

[3] Low-Latency Dolby Vision (LLDV) is transmitted via a 12-bit baseband according to the process patented by Dolby. In addition, the HDMI specification requires that Dolby's chosen YCbCr 4:2:2 color model be coupled with a 12-bit transmission, but this does not necessarily mean that the content has to be 12-bit.

[4] Video Electronics Standards Association (VESA) Coordinated Video Timing - Reduced Blanking (CVT-RB) has some iterations (v1, v2, v3). 144 Hz (and others) are not standardized with an HDMI Video Identification Code (VIC). HDMI transmits audio during the horizontal blanking periods. This parameter is therefore generously chosen in the standards. However, there are also PC monitors without audio that use very short H_blank intervals to save bandwidth.

-----

Custom Electronic Design & Installation Association (CEDIA) published an HDMI 2.1 Technology For Integrators White Paper in which the only use case for 48 Gbps is 4K120 RGB 12-bit uncompressed. There is no 4K120 RGB 12-bit source, no content and no 4K120 RGB 12-bit capable panel for consumers. And if so, you could transmit that with DSC. So I wouldn't worry about 48 Gbps.

What is important in my view is the DSC decoder and encoder for the FPGA and processing of the full size of the Extended Display Identification Data (EDID) of 4 blocks (512 bytes) upstream. The latter also ensures that manufacturer-specific video timing, which may be contained in the DisplayID Extension Block of the EDID, is passed on to the source devices.

Don't hesitate to point out any errors this post may contain.