[superkyle]

I haven't had time to test thoroughly but the chart with local dimming ON is attached... DeltaE of .7, Seems pretty good!

You very well may not have the same issue with the P65. But like I said before it's very easy to determine. If you get a free chance try what I said and report back. Also while you have the meter on try running the sweep using absolute with gamma and see what the delta is then. If you are happy with it then that's all that really matters just trying to fill you in on what we have learned so far about the P60/70 and using you to help others determine of the P65 is more straight forward haha.

 

[Googer]

@Googer have you been able to put your meter to the screen yet? I haven't had time to do a full calibration again but I did find that the blue push now exist (although slightly less than before) on all points. I was very disappointed by this. What is your advice for a work flow around this? I've been speaking with @fafrd and I believe his work flow is pretty solid however in light of the blue push I don't know if it is perfect. It is out of the relm of my expertise. Hopefully you can dust off the meter and help us noobs out haha. I will dive deeper into this weekend but until then I won't have that much time to explore. If you check it out please let me know what you think.

Not yet - I'm currently not sure when I'll have time to re-measure / recalibrate mine at the moment. Earliest possible time right now looks like maybe Sunday morning / early afternoon (before the NFL conference championship games).

 

[oturn]

Is there a general consensus of basic and advanced pictures settings for the P70? If not, could a calibration expert provide a summary of choices? This is for those of us who simply want a good set of baseline recommendations to use, instead of the out of the box settings.

I understand there are variations in sets, and it isn't recommended to re-use the 11-point white balance settings (and perhaps the color tuner settings?) However, is there enough commonality in the P70's to give us a starting point?


For example:

from fafrd's calibration:

P70 Firmware Version: 1.0.4.1
Pic Mode Cal Dark
Backlight 30
Brightness 50
Contrast 50
Color 50
Tint 0
Sharpness 0
Color Temp Normal
Active LED On
Gamma 2.4
Film Mod Auto
All other Off


From Googer's day mode calibration:

Day mode (start from Calibrated, feel free to save when done):

Basic settings:

Backlight: 50
Brightness: 50
Contrast: 50
Color: 50 for HDMI 1-4, 58 for HDMI 5
Tint: 0
Sharpness: 0

Advanced Picture:

Color Temperature: Computer
Black Detail: Off
Active LED Zones: On
Smooth Motion Effect: Off
Clear Action: Off
Reduce Signal Noise: Off / n/a
Reduce Block Noise: Off / n/a
Game Low Latency: On (Off causes motion-handling issues, such as occasionally choppy motion, etc.)
Picture Size & Position: untouched / n/a
Film Mode: n/a
Gamma: 2.2


Are the variations in the basic and advanced settings simply because of the starting mode?

It's difficult to piece together good recommendations from this thread, like drinking from a fire hose! Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Ph8te]

The consensus is to choose what settings look best to you. I would not use 11pt as those vary between sets and firmware versions. If you don't have a meter you really shouldn't be touching 11pt/CMS honestly. Just use the basic controls to adjust the picture to something that you like.

Most all calibrations for the p70 have been posted (links) to page one. One thing you'll never get is a consensus


Sent from nowhere

 

[superkyle]

Is there a general consensus of basic and advanced pictures settings for the P70? If not, could a calibration expert provide a summary of choices? This is for those of us who simply want a good set of baseline recommendations to use, instead of the out of the box settings.

Like previously stated all calibrations are posted on page one. Try them all out pick which one is best to your eyes and that's the best

 

[fafrd]

Is there a general consensus of basic and advanced pictures settings for the P70? If not, could a calibration expert provide a summary of choices? This is for those of us who simply want a good set of baseline recommendations to use, instead of the out of the box settings.

I understand there are variations in sets, and it isn't recommended to re-use the 11-point white balance settings (and perhaps the color tuner settings?) However, is there enough commonality in the P70's to give us a starting point?


For example:

from fafrd's calibration:

P70 Firmware Version: 1.0.4.1
Pic Mode Cal Dark
Backlight 30
Brightness 50
Contrast 50
Color 50
Tint 0
Sharpness 0
Color Temp Normal
Active LED On
Gamma 2.4
Film Mod Auto
All other Off


From Googer's day mode calibration:

Day mode (start from Calibrated, feel free to save when done):

Basic settings:

Backlight: 50
Brightness: 50
Contrast: 50
Color: 50 for HDMI 1-4, 58 for HDMI 5
Tint: 0
Sharpness: 0

Advanced Picture:

Color Temperature: Computer
Black Detail: Off
Active LED Zones: On
Smooth Motion Effect: Off
Clear Action: Off
Reduce Signal Noise: Off / n/a
Reduce Block Noise: Off / n/a
Game Low Latency: On (Off causes motion-handling issues, such as occasionally choppy motion, etc.)
Picture Size & Position: untouched / n/a
Film Mode: n/a
Gamma: 2.2


Are the variations in the basic and advanced settings simply because of the starting mode?

It's difficult to piece together good recommendations from this thread, like drinking from a fire hose! Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Your first list of settings is very close to what I use and recommend for the P70 for dark-room viewing (100 Nits peak).

A few clarifications:

Backlight is for image brightness. With CA off, a setting of 30 results in 100 cd/m2 which is my preference for dark-room viewing. It can be increased to taste.

Color is used to align HDMI5 color primaries to the primaries for HDMI1-4, ViaApps (streaming), and OTA TV. Since recieving FW 1.1.14, I now have Color at 53 for HDMI 5 and at 47 for HDMI 1-4, Viaapps, and OTA TV (everything else). The delta of ~6-8 between HDMI 5 and all of the others is probably what matters most, so Googer's suggested color settings are probably fine as well (I only ever calibrated HDMI 5 until recieving the new FW recently).

Gamma can be adjusted to taste. 2.4 provides the highest contrast and the darkest shadow-detail, usually only an option for dark-room viewing. 2.2 will boost near-black shadow detail but sacrifice a bit of contrast at the higher brightness range. 2.0 or lower is generally only used for bright-room viewing. Feel free to adjust and choose what appears best to you.

Clear Action should only be used to improve motion resolution in concert with Smooth Motion. Some claim it helps in other ways but I have never experienced them. CA ON will impact brightness output, so Backlight will need to be adjusted to compensate.

Game Low Latency is intended only to be used with HDMI 5 to disable pretty much all processing and provide the lowest latency for twitch gaming. Some claim having GLL ON improves picture quality and solves many various glitches and bugs, but I have never experienced this with my P70.

Tint can also be adjusted to taste.

Use of Active Led Zones and Calibrated Dark are the two most important settings for best dark-room viewing of Cinema content. Everything else should pretty much be off.

I currently have:

Backlight at 30 and Gamma at 2.4 with Calibrated Dark delivering 100 Nits peak (dark-room viewing);

Backlight at 30 and Gamma at 2.2 with Calibrated delivering 150 Nits (dim-room viewing);

Backlight at 60 and Gamma at 2.1 with Standard delivering 250 Nits (daytime bright room viewing); and

Backlight at 100 and Gamma at 2.0 with Vivid delivering 350 Nits (brightest-room / Direct Sunlight viewing).

 

[Geronimo.USMC]

Not yet - I'm currently not sure when I'll have time to re-measure / recalibrate mine at the moment. Earliest possible time right now looks like maybe Sunday morning / early afternoon (before the NFL conference championship games).

Please update us when you recalibrate! Thanks. I was using your settings & just got the new firmware. There is a def blue push.

 

[jamesofla]

Has any one recalibrated there P50 since the 1.1.14 has come out?

 

[oturn]

Your first list of settings is very close to what I use and recommend for the P70 for dark-room viewing (100 Nits peak).

A few clarifications:

Backlight is for image brightness. With CA off, a setting of 30 results in 100 cd/m2 which is my preference for dark-room viewing. It can be increased to taste.

Color is used to align HDMI5 color primaries to the primaries for HDMI1-4, ViaApps (streaming), and OTA TV. Since recieving FW 1.1.14, I now have Color at 53 for HDMI 5 and at 47 for HDMI 1-4, Viaapps, and OTA TV (everything else). The delta of ~6-8 between HDMI 5 and all of the others is probably what matters most, so Googer's suggested color settings are probably fine as well (I only ever calibrated HDMI 5 until recieving the new FW recently).

Gamma can be adjusted to taste. 2.4 provides the highest contrast and the darkest shadow-detail, usually only an option for dark-room viewing. 2.2 will boost near-black shadow detail but sacrifice a bit of contrast at the higher brightness range. 2.0 or lower is generally only used for bright-room viewing. Feel free to adjust and choose what appears best to you.

Clear Action should only be used to improve motion resolution in concert with Smooth Motion. Some claim it helps in other ways but I have never experienced them. CA ON will impact brightness output, so Backlight will need to be adjusted to compensate.

Game Low Latency is intended only to be used with HDMI 5 to disable pretty much all processing and provide the lowest latency for twitch gaming. Some claim having GLL ON improves picture quality and solves many various glitches and bugs, but I have never experienced this with my P70.

Tint can also be adjusted to taste.

Use of Active Led Zones and Calibrated Dark are the two most important settings for best dark-room viewing of Cinema content. Everything else should pretty much be off.

I currently have:

Backlight at 30 and Gamma at 2.4 with Calibrated Dark delivering 100 Nits peak (dark-room viewing);

Backlight at 30 and Gamma at 2.2 with Calibrated delivering 150 Nits (dim-room viewing);

Backlight at 60 and Gamma at 2.1 with Standard delivering 250 Nits (daytime bright room viewing); and

Backlight at 100 and Gamma at 2.0 with Vivid delivering 350 Nits (brightest-room / Direct Sunlight viewing).

Thank you for the more detailed explanations.

I'll stick with changing only the basic and advanced pictures settings, and leaving the 11 point white balance alone. However, are the P70's similar enough to change the color tuner settings from the posted calibrations, or should that be left alone as well?

 

[buzzard767]

Red Push

I keep seeing the term "push" used in conjunction with Red, Blue, or Green. I don't believe you fellows know much about it as most of you are new to display calibration.

You're aware that most manufacturers sent out their displays with decidedly bluish (cool) Grayscales and the reason is that the TVs appear brighter on the Big Box wall and customers tend to think brighter is better. If the color decoding aspect of these sets is correct, Caucasian flesh tones would take on a Smurfish blue tint. Manufactures intentionally increase the values of Red in the color decoder to counter this, thus the term Red Push. There is no reason that I'm aware of for Blue Push or Green Push to exist. Therefore, the use of the terminology is incorrect.

Joe Kane describes it better than I:

"Red push is necessary because humans are acutely attuned to flesh tone. If flesh tone is tinted incorrectly, people notice and complain. That problem automatically occurs if the display, like every single TV, comes from the factory with a too blue grayscale. If the display didn't have an opposing "error" in its color decoding to remove the blue tint from flesh tones, people would notice that skin looks too blue when the grayscale is too blue. The red push in the color decoder intentionally exaggerates anything with red in it and skin has red in its coloration. So you red push hides the skin color problem inherent with the too high color temperature that comes from the factory. Unfortunately, it also messes with everything else which has red in it and basically means that you get correct color for skin and only skin. People see that the picture is really bright and skin looks good so it MUST be a better picture. That means sales - exactly the goal of any good manufacturer.

Now, we of the home theater enlightened want accurate color for the ENTIRE scene, not only flesh tone. In that quest we take the consumer display and have its gray scale brought back down to the standard D65 color of gray. This does not correct the red push built into the display to hide its normally severely too blue factory shipped state, so you start to notice that the greater amount of red in the correctly colored grayscale causes the red push to be evident. Remember, we originally had two opposing "errors" which combined together yielded good looking flesh tones. With the too blue error of a bad gray scale removed, red push becomes more noticable because skin tones are now too red. In the ideal situation, the calibrator is also able to adjust the color decoder to remove the red push. This is possible on some displays. Others, simply don't allow their color decoder to be corrected back towards NTSC standard behavior. In such cases, one can use an external R-Y attenuator (AKA red push attenuator in the forums) to correct the red push for component video. That works great for DVD, but the internal tuner will still yield too much red.

In summary, manufacturers must build red push into the displays in order to make flesh tones look correct while still being competitive in the display brightness by boosting blue rat race."


Just so you know.....

 

[superkyle]

Thank you for the more detailed explanations.

I'll stick with changing only the basic and advanced pictures settings, and leaving the 11 point white balance alone. However, are the P70's similar enough to change the color tuner settings from the posted calibrations, or should that be left alone as well?

The CMS is based entirely on the greyscale. Changing the CMS without greyscale calibration could very easily negatively effect the accuracy of your color profile.

 

[superkyle]

@buzzard767 thank you for the information. It sounds like we have in fact been using it incorrectly. So basically when we are reffering to the red appearing more orange due to the panel limitations and not to offset the blue which is used to attract customers we should call that a skew? We should also call the increase in blue throughout the greyscale when ALZ is turned on simply just an increase? I was always thinking it was basically the tv "pushing" out more red and blue. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[buzzard767]

@buzzard767 thank you for the information. It sounds like we have in fact been using it incorrectly. So basically when we are reffering to the red appearing more orange due to the panel limitations and not to offset the blue which is used to attract customers we should call that a skew? We should also call the increase in blue throughout the greyscale when ALZ is turned on simply just an increase? I was always thinking it was basically the tv "pushing" out more red and blue. Thanks for the clarification.

Skew is as good a term as any. Unfortunately it's panel related and firmware probably can't rectify the 100% Red x & y positions on the CIE chart.

The sudden change in color at the 100% White luminance level due to changes in the dimming setting is a new one on me. This makes Grayscale and Gamma tuning a challenge but might possibly be fixed via FW. I would hope so and see no reason for such implementation in the first place except to mess with calibrators' minds....... lol

 

[superkyle]

Skew is as good a term as any. Unfortunately it's panel related and firmware probably can't rectify the 100% Red x & y positions on the CIE chart.

The sudden change in color at the 100% White luminance level due to changes in the dimming setting is a new one on me. This makes Grayscale and Gamma tuning a challenge but might possibly be fixed via FW. I would hope so and see no reason for such implementation in the first place except to mess with calibrators' minds....... lol

I will say I put my meter to the screen and played around for about 30 minutes and I did find that the blue increase at 100% is now reduced but still exist. Unfortunately the trade off is it now has the same blue increase throughout the entire grey scale (at least through 50-100) which is what I tested. Do you have any advise for calibrating around this? Would it be best just to try and calibrate with dimming on? Or possibly calibrate using full screen test patterns to eliminate the possibility that the zones could be turned off? As a new calibrator im definitely confused. I'm waiting for my i1 pro to arrive on Friday and then I will spend more time actually figuring it out.

 

[buzzard767]

I will say I put my meter to the screen and played around for about 30 minutes and I did find that the blue increase at 100% is now reduced but still exist. Unfortunately the trade off is it now has the same blue increase throughout the entire grey scale (at least through 50-100) which is what I tested. Do you have any advise for calibrating around this? Would it be best just to try and calibrate with dimming on? Or possibly calibrate using full screen test patterns to eliminate the possibility that the zones could be turned off? As a new calibrator im definitely confused. I'm waiting for my i1 pro to arrive on Friday and then I will spend more time actually figuring it out.

First of all, put your meter on the screen and measure the color of white at 50% and below switching dimming on and off to see if these levels are affected. If they are, calibrate the entire Grayscale with dimming on and see how GS ramp and step patterns look when your're finished.

More often than not, FALD displays are calibrated with full field patterns and local dimming off. However, if the Visio P dimming is affecting color in the GS (it apparently is) and/or Decoder you should try the entire calibration with dimming turned on. Check your results with known content and see if that method works.

 

[Googer]

Skew is as good a term as any. Unfortunately it's panel related and firmware probably can't rectify the 100% Red x & y positions on the CIE chart.

The sudden change in color at the 100% White luminance level due to changes in the dimming setting is a new one on me. This makes Grayscale and Gamma tuning a challenge but might possibly be fixed via FW. I would hope so and see no reason for such implementation in the first place except to mess with calibrators' minds....... lol

You may have noticed I never once have referred to the orange-ish reds at high saturations on the P60 and P70 as a red push since as you said, that's technically not what it is. I believe I've called it a 'shift' or 'twist', but 'skew' is probably a better term yet.

 

[superkyle]

First of all, put your meter on the screen and measure the color of white at 50% and below switching dimming on and off to see if these levels are affected. If they are, calibrate the entire Grayscale with dimming on and see how GS ramp and step patterns look when your're finished.

More often than not, FALD displays are calibrated with full field patterns and local dimming off. However, if the Visio P dimming is affecting color in the GS (it apparently is) and/or Decoder you should try the entire calibration with dimming turned on. Check your results with known content and see if that method works.

Buzz thanks for all your information. I will check it out as soon as I can

 

[superkyle]

@fafrd I have good news and bad news.
First the good news.
I got my i1pro today!!!
Opened it up and the Spectro was still sealed in the original packaging. Nothing in this set has ever been opened. Even the case is in flawless condition.
Now the bad news.
I have no idea how to use this "properly" haha. I've done some reading and I thiught I understood exactly but now that it is here it has come with parts I'm not sure how to use. First off there is a plate that attaches to the spectro. Basically you twist to lock it in place. I'm fairly sure this is to be able to use it flat against tvs. It also came with a shiny board with a white and black side. I'm guessing this is used to reference the spectro? Im not exactly sure. Maybe someone could enlighten me a little bit on the components. I don't have time to get to it today but Saturday I should have plenty of time to really dive in and do everything properly. From now until then if anyone can fill me in and or point me to a forum that will help out that would be greatly appreciated. I've found several forum that do help some but none that fully answer what all the components do.

 

[Googer]

@fafrd I have good news and bad news.
First the good news.
I got my i1pro today!!!
Opened it up and the Spectro was still sealed in the original packaging. Nothing in this set has ever been opened. Even the case is in flawless condition.
Now the bad news.
I have no idea how to use this "properly" haha. I've done some reading and I thiught I understood exactly but now that it is here it has come with parts I'm not sure how to use. First off there is a plate that attaches to the spectro. Basically you twist to lock it in place. I'm fairly sure this is to be able to use it flat against tvs. It also came with a shiny board with a white and black side. I'm guessing this is used to reference the spectro? Im not exactly sure. Maybe someone could enlighten me a little bit on the components. I don't have time to get to it today but Saturday I should have plenty of time to really dive in and do everything properly. From now until then if anyone can fill me in and or point me to a forum that will help out that would be greatly appreciated. I've found several forum that do help some but none that fully answer what all the components do.

The part you twist on is in fact what you use to mount it to your display, so you got that part right. The plate you refer to is the reference white tile that you use to calibrate the EyeOne Pro. Before you take any measures with it on the display, basically you need to put it on the tile and tell your software to initialize the meter. After that, you put it on the display mount and can proceed using it.

However, EyeOne Pro's drift relatively quickly over time and need to have that initialization step re-performed approximately every 10 minutes for maximum accuracy. As you may surmise, this is a major PITA when calibrating a display, which is one reason why it is actually preferable to use one in conjunction with a colorimeter such as the i1D3 that doesn't need re-initialization or drift over time in the same way once you profile it for the display in question. The other major ones, of course, are that the i1D3 takes readings much more quickly and has better accuracy (once profiled) for low level (i.e., near black) readings. Hope this helps!

 

[superkyle]

The part you twist on is in fact what you use to mount it to your display, so you got that part right. The plate you refer to is the reference white tile that you use to calibrate the EyeOne Pro. Before you take any measures with it on the display, basically you need to put it on the tile and tell your software to initialize the meter. After that, you put it on the display mount and can proceed using it.

However, EyeOne Pro's drift relatively quickly over time and need to have that initialization step re-performed approximately every 10 minutes for maximum accuracy. As you may surmise, this is a major PITA when calibrating a display, which is one reason why it is actually preferable to use one in conjunction with a colorimeter such as the i1D3 that doesn't need re-initialization or drift over time in the same way once you profile it for the display in question. The other major ones, of course, are that the i1D3 takes readings much more quickly and has better accuracy (once profiled) for low level (i.e., near black) readings. Hope this helps!

Awesome that is exactly what I needed to know. I do have one more question though. I figured that the white and black were used to calibrate. So basically you place it on the black side then initialize. Flip it over and do the white side and initialize again? Also you do this without putting it in the display mount? If so then I guess you hold it by hand and tell the software to initialize? Does the button on the side of the meter auto start initializer ion or is that software specific and not built into the drivers? If that is the case what is the clear plastic piece used for? It seems to fit perfectly in the slots of the "white plate so I assume it has something to do with it but I'm not sure what. After that i have basically 10 minutes to profile my i1d3 once finished pack it up and go about my business with the i1d3.

I apologize in advance for all the questions Im sure most will be answered when I actually get my hands on it and play but I figured until then might as well learn as much as I can.